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The more productive conversation isn't around the tone of this particular "outrage piece," but the bombshell it references: The New York Times article about McK

The more productive conversation isn't around the tone of this particular "outrage piece," but the bombshell it references: The New York Times article about McKinsey's proposal of paying pharmacy companies rebates for OxyContin Overdoses [1] 1 - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-oxycontin-opioids.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-...

troughway 6y ago
Yes we had our 2 minute of hate thread on it a couple of days ago. Either do something about it or quit feigning outrage by submitting blog posts. It was useless then, it’s useless now. There is no “bombshell” here. It’s on par business for billionaires. Retweeting bullshit doesn’t improve your carbon footprint, get it through your head. You can scream all you want about what McKinsey is doing, but one thing you won't do is enact change by making blog posts with silly gifs inbetween bolded text proclaiming how outraged you are. This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite.
- ahelwer 6y ago
  Individuals cannot "do something about" issues like this. Even a lone wolf gun attack against a corporate boardroom would see the victims swiftly replaced by ideological clones. Collective action is the only possible route to remedy, and that requires building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them. Hence the beating of the drum. Having two minutes of hate isn't the goal.
  - troughway 6y ago
    >Collective action Pray tell, what collective action? Are you going to boycott McKinsey? Write to the same congress representatives that companies like McKinsey personally finance and wine and dine and call in for favors? Do share, we are all curious what is this collective action that will somehow lead to enlightenment of "building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them." Billionaires are the untouchable class of people. They don't answer to anyone. They quite literally own and run the country. I don't know why it's difficult for the rational person to get this through their heads. The last thing you will see is them being in any kind of trouble about it. We can discuss the failing of a company like Enron another time. They really fucked the dog and in much the same way as Jeffrey Epstein hanging himself in a high security prison, pissed off other billionaires who are the only people who can get some sense of action out of the legal system on each other.
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      No, writing to congresspeople is useless. There are a few possibly viable strategies: one, fill as many elected positions as possible with leftist candidates. Two, build power of labor unions to achieve democratic control over the sources of profit. Three, well... revolution, if the above two fail. The ultimate backstop. Would be happy to hear any other suggestions.
      - troughway 6y ago
        >viable strategies >leftist candidates >democratic control over the sources of profit >revolution Are you taking me for a ride here? I can't tell if you're LARPing or not. This is exactly what I am talking about. HN crowd is so disconnected from reality, that people on here, without a moment of self reflection, literally believe "revolution" is a viable answer to something like this. Yeah, you go and get started on that, internet soldier.
        ahelwer 6y ago
        Your solution seems to be somewhere between "lie down and rot" or "just let it happen", so not sure you have standing to criticize.
    - Shacklet0n 6y ago
      Pray tell, have you ever heard of the French Revolution?
- 93po 6y ago
  There are endless examples of bad press forcing change in laws and companies. This article is making something much more publicly visible. Spreading it is better than nothing, and again there's plenty of times when the populace becoming outraged results in change
  - troughway 6y ago
    >bad press forcing change in laws and companies. Big oil has entered the chat.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Cuyahoga_River_Fire https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Cuyahoga_River_Fire tl;dr: The Cuyahoga river caught on fire many, many times over the years. However, a fire in June 1969 spurred legislative action that finally solved the problem, even though that fire was not the most destructive nor the most deadly. The difference was society had changed, and that fire struck a nerve when the previous ones hadn't. The moral of the story is: past performance is no guarantee of future results.
      - throwanem 6y ago
        True. Totally unrelated, the example you cite is now fifty years in the past, and occurred in a time when local news still existed.
        ardy42 6y ago
        > True. Totally unrelated, the example you cite is now fifty years in the past, and occurred in a time when local news still existed. It's related because it's a nice clear example of "bad press [eventually] forcing change in laws and companies," on an issue that's settled enough that one would be hard-pressed to argue the end result was wrong. The swipe at local news isn't exactly relevant, given this recent is a national one that did get coverage and the river fire spurred a federal, not local, legislative solution.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite. So, you're saying it's OK, then? Otherwise, you just seem unreasonably mad at people who don't dutifully accept the status quo without comment.
creato 6y ago
I don't doubt the proposal existed... But can someone explain why this is a good idea even assuming a lack of ethics? Would this really have changed the behavior of pharmacies somehow? Pharmacies don't have any influence over prescriptions, do they?
- cguess 6y ago
  Even considering such an idea is enough for it to get in writing or presented is such an egregious lapse of ethics that whomever does it should be fired immediately. "Sorry we know you're going to lose customers if they die, what if we make up the difference for you so you keep selling our product?"
- HillRat 6y ago
  It’s likely related to McKinsey’s recommendations to Purdue that they attempt to get major pharmacies to “loosen up” on efforts to stop illegal opioid scripts (which had resulted in an 18% reduction in OxyContin units sold by one major chain in particular). Paying kickbacks based on ODs would be a pretty blunt instrument that, I think, would have triggered alarm bells at those pharmacies’ leadership.
remarkEon 6y ago
I think the even more productive conversation is centered around how these consulting firms (Deloitte, BCG, Bain, etc etc) have become giant black holes, sucking in massive amounts of hyper talented and competent people. And then they have them building spreadsheets about how to more “economically” provide a product that was/is literally killing Americans at scale. It’s part of a larger conversation that’s difficult to have, but I think is largely true: managerial and financial capitalism has been a complete disaster.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > hyper talented and competent people Talented, but not hyper talented. At my school, consulting was sorta the career you did if you couldn't get a job doing something else (like tech or finance).
  - remarkEon 6y ago
    Probably highly dependent on which program you attend (assuming you’re talking about MBA programs). For some banking is the “high status” profession, for others it’s consulting, for still others it’s tech.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      No, just my Harvard undergrad experience
      - paulyy_y 6y ago
        I went to state school and do consulting at a B4 - you're right on the money, consulting (especially at Big 4 level) isn't sexy. MBB is a league sexier though, but gets beat out by PE and some good spots at the FAANGs

troughway 6y ago

Yes we had our 2 minute of hate thread on it a couple of days ago. Either do something about it or quit feigning outrage by submitting blog posts. It was useless then, it’s useless now. There is no “bombshell” here. It’s on par business for billionaires. Retweeting bullshit doesn’t improve your carbon footprint, get it through your head. You can scream all you want about what McKinsey is doing, but one thing you won't do is enact change by making blog posts with silly gifs inbetween bolded text proclaiming how outraged you are. This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite.

ahelwer 6y ago
Individuals cannot "do something about" issues like this. Even a lone wolf gun attack against a corporate boardroom would see the victims swiftly replaced by ideological clones. Collective action is the only possible route to remedy, and that requires building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them. Hence the beating of the drum. Having two minutes of hate isn't the goal.
- troughway 6y ago
  >Collective action Pray tell, what collective action? Are you going to boycott McKinsey? Write to the same congress representatives that companies like McKinsey personally finance and wine and dine and call in for favors? Do share, we are all curious what is this collective action that will somehow lead to enlightenment of "building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them." Billionaires are the untouchable class of people. They don't answer to anyone. They quite literally own and run the country. I don't know why it's difficult for the rational person to get this through their heads. The last thing you will see is them being in any kind of trouble about it. We can discuss the failing of a company like Enron another time. They really fucked the dog and in much the same way as Jeffrey Epstein hanging himself in a high security prison, pissed off other billionaires who are the only people who can get some sense of action out of the legal system on each other.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    No, writing to congresspeople is useless. There are a few possibly viable strategies: one, fill as many elected positions as possible with leftist candidates. Two, build power of labor unions to achieve democratic control over the sources of profit. Three, well... revolution, if the above two fail. The ultimate backstop. Would be happy to hear any other suggestions.
    - troughway 6y ago
      >viable strategies >leftist candidates >democratic control over the sources of profit >revolution Are you taking me for a ride here? I can't tell if you're LARPing or not. This is exactly what I am talking about. HN crowd is so disconnected from reality, that people on here, without a moment of self reflection, literally believe "revolution" is a viable answer to something like this. Yeah, you go and get started on that, internet soldier.
      - ahelwer 6y ago
        Your solution seems to be somewhere between "lie down and rot" or "just let it happen", so not sure you have standing to criticize.
  - Shacklet0n 6y ago
    Pray tell, have you ever heard of the French Revolution?
93po 6y ago
There are endless examples of bad press forcing change in laws and companies. This article is making something much more publicly visible. Spreading it is better than nothing, and again there's plenty of times when the populace becoming outraged results in change
- troughway 6y ago
  >bad press forcing change in laws and companies. Big oil has entered the chat.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Cuyahoga_River_Fire https://ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Cuyahoga_River_Fire tl;dr: The Cuyahoga river caught on fire many, many times over the years. However, a fire in June 1969 spurred legislative action that finally solved the problem, even though that fire was not the most destructive nor the most deadly. The difference was society had changed, and that fire struck a nerve when the previous ones hadn't. The moral of the story is: past performance is no guarantee of future results.
    - throwanem 6y ago
      True. Totally unrelated, the example you cite is now fifty years in the past, and occurred in a time when local news still existed.
      - ardy42 6y ago
        > True. Totally unrelated, the example you cite is now fifty years in the past, and occurred in a time when local news still existed. It's related because it's a nice clear example of "bad press [eventually] forcing change in laws and companies," on an issue that's settled enough that one would be hard-pressed to argue the end result was wrong. The swipe at local news isn't exactly relevant, given this recent is a national one that did get coverage and the river fire spurred a federal, not local, legislative solution.
ardy42 6y ago
> This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite. So, you're saying it's OK, then? Otherwise, you just seem unreasonably mad at people who don't dutifully accept the status quo without comment.

creato 6y ago

I don't doubt the proposal existed... But can someone explain why this is a good idea even assuming a lack of ethics? Would this really have changed the behavior of pharmacies somehow? Pharmacies don't have any influence over prescriptions, do they?

cguess 6y ago
Even considering such an idea is enough for it to get in writing or presented is such an egregious lapse of ethics that whomever does it should be fired immediately. "Sorry we know you're going to lose customers if they die, what if we make up the difference for you so you keep selling our product?"
HillRat 6y ago
It’s likely related to McKinsey’s recommendations to Purdue that they attempt to get major pharmacies to “loosen up” on efforts to stop illegal opioid scripts (which had resulted in an 18% reduction in OxyContin units sold by one major chain in particular). Paying kickbacks based on ODs would be a pretty blunt instrument that, I think, would have triggered alarm bells at those pharmacies’ leadership.

remarkEon 6y ago

I think the even more productive conversation is centered around how these consulting firms (Deloitte, BCG, Bain, etc etc) have become giant black holes, sucking in massive amounts of hyper talented and competent people. And then they have them building spreadsheets about how to more “economically” provide a product that was/is literally killing Americans at scale. It’s part of a larger conversation that’s difficult to have, but I think is largely true: managerial and financial capitalism has been a complete disaster.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> hyper talented and competent people Talented, but not hyper talented. At my school, consulting was sorta the career you did if you couldn't get a job doing something else (like tech or finance).
- remarkEon 6y ago
  Probably highly dependent on which program you attend (assuming you’re talking about MBA programs). For some banking is the “high status” profession, for others it’s consulting, for still others it’s tech.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    No, just my Harvard undergrad experience
    - paulyy_y 6y ago
      I went to state school and do consulting at a B4 - you're right on the money, consulting (especially at Big 4 level) isn't sexy. MBB is a league sexier though, but gets beat out by PE and some good spots at the FAANGs