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McKinsey: Friendly Neighborhood Spreadsheet Sociopaths Are Back in Town

zedderled 6y ago
Good article. I followed up on their work with ICE as well and how some members on that team were shocked by the penny pinching on food, medical help and even in illegal areas of due process. Fuck McKinsey. Spreadsheet, growth, models my ass if you do not realize the human factor
konjin 6y ago
I agree with everything said there. It is still the best system for motivating people we have invented. While for aesthetic reasons I still prefer centrally planned command economies where failure is met with a bullet I can't deny that those are terrible once the foundations of a modern society are put in place, e.g. roads, electricity, water, trains, public transport, telecommunications, etc. That said, we would benefit from a decade or two of eco-Stalinism to deal with climate change before going back to normal.
- kodyo 6y ago
  Presumably, you don't see yourself among those occupying a mass grave.
  - konjin 6y ago
    You assume wrong, but there's more to life than living.
    - weare138 6y ago
      You must be fun at parties.
- kace91 6y ago
  > While for aesthetic reasons I still prefer centrally planned command economies where failure is met with a bullet What the fuck?? I honestly have no words to reply to this, I just couldn't go past the comment since not replying seemed like implicit acceptance that this is a normal thing to read.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > I honestly have no words to reply to this, I just couldn't go past the comment since not replying seemed like implicit acceptance that this is a normal thing to read. The correct response is to flag and move on. No reasonable people advocate for Stalinism (even anti-capitalists), and framing critiques of capitalism in a laissez faire vs. Stalinism dichotomy is a a right-wing shibboleth. That makes me think the GP comment is probably properly classed as a kind of internet post that starts with a T and should not be fed.
    - konjin 6y ago
      Considering capitalism is on track to deliver the end of industrial civilization by the start of the 21st century no reasonable people can argue for it. But reasonable people once thought burning witches was a way to end droughts, so maybe instead of following common sense we should listen to scientists and change the political system to one that means our grand children will not have to eat each other?
- snypher 6y ago
  >roads, electricity, water, trains, public transport, telecommunications Yes because all these examples are working great right now.
  - konjin 6y ago
    Yes, I did say we would benefit from a bit of Stalinism.
- virtualritz 6y ago
  > It is still the best system for motivating people we have invented. What do you refer to by 'system' here, exactly? The political system or the economy one? You sound like you conflate the two.
troughway 6y ago
Why is this shallow outrage piece on the front page? I get it, you’re upset. Preaching to the choir (bonus points because it’s a YC investment substack) is the worst way to deal with it. Sociopath this, narcissism that. Your gif there is right: it’s all so tiresome. Every thread that’s remotely related to health and lifestyle on here has a handful of people saying how Buddhist breathing techniques are a great remedy. Go do some breathing exercises and quit shitposting on a Saturday. If this is what HN is reduced to, feigning some moral drum-up about oh how unfair things are, get off your ass and do something. Leave the damn website for tech related talks please.
- tropdrop 6y ago
  The more productive conversation isn't around the tone of this particular "outrage piece," but the bombshell it references: The New York Times article about McKinsey's proposal of paying pharmacy companies rebates for OxyContin Overdoses [1] 1 - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-oxycontin-opioids.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-...
  - troughway 6y ago
    Yes we had our 2 minute of hate thread on it a couple of days ago. Either do something about it or quit feigning outrage by submitting blog posts. It was useless then, it’s useless now. There is no “bombshell” here. It’s on par business for billionaires. Retweeting bullshit doesn’t improve your carbon footprint, get it through your head. You can scream all you want about what McKinsey is doing, but one thing you won't do is enact change by making blog posts with silly gifs inbetween bolded text proclaiming how outraged you are. This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite.
    - ahelwer 6y ago
      Individuals cannot "do something about" issues like this. Even a lone wolf gun attack against a corporate boardroom would see the victims swiftly replaced by ideological clones. Collective action is the only possible route to remedy, and that requires building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them. Hence the beating of the drum. Having two minutes of hate isn't the goal.
fnord77 6y ago
> Ultimately, when we reduce our fellow man to numbers in a spreadsheet, when we become alienated from them, we have turned them into shadows. And we too, have become shadows. A kind of perverse collectivism emerging out of individualism. Every person, reduced to a shadow.
norswap 6y ago
> To these snakes, people are nothing but numbers to squeeze revenue out of. Spreadsheet sociopathy. If every single consultant and banker disappeared tomorrow, we would be better off. Who's the sociopath I wonder?
elevenoh 6y ago
"Ultimately, when we reduce our fellow man to numbers in a spreadsheet, when we become alienated from them, we have turned them into shadows." The folks I happen to know who work at McKinsey are wrought with insecurity, ego & entitlement. They seem to love the business model of exploiting those most vulnerable.
- voisin 6y ago
  Confirmed. This is standard fare in business school, undergrad and MBA alike. There’s no academic rigour because everyone passes because the schools treat students as high paying customers who are always right, and then they have a straight shot into consulting or investment banking, ruining the world due to the aforementioned insecurity, ego & entitlement and attraction to exploitation.
  - webinvest 6y ago
    That’s hyperbole is incorrect. My generic state university only has a 60% graduation rate and it’s just a regular non-ivy league state university. That means 40% drop out or flunk.
smokefoot 6y ago
I would suggest reading the materials. It’s slightly less insidious than the headlines would have you believe. A couple choice lead lines: “We are committed to lowering average daily doses on OxyContin and will provide higher rebates on prescriptions with higher dose strengths” “We believe in our technology: We will pay additional rebates on any new OxyContin related overdose or opioid use disorder diagnosis” Remember OxyContin was supposed to be less addictive than traditional opoid painkillers. Unfortunately it turned out to still be quite addictive and deadly, but at least this doesn’t indicate that McK or Purdue actually knew that. I guess they probably should have? There’s also a worrying chart showing rising overdose deaths which doesn’t seem to be accompanied by a thoughtful commentary or real analysis of why—it’s just an actuarial exercise.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  Purdue is a clinical pharma company. They do extensive testing on their molecular candidates both in-vitro and in-vivo. There is no way they would not have known that OxyContin was more addictive. If memory serves me right there was a whistleblower who claimed that Purdue knew and hid the fact from regulators but I might be mistaken.
golergka 6y ago
Instead of commenting, I'd just want to bring up this brilliant scene from Margin Call: https://youtu.be/2f2kGHcdJYU?t=67 https://youtu.be/2f2kGHcdJYU?t=67
haltingproblem 6y ago
Another famous McKinsey piece-de-art comes to mind - the work they did for the NYC Dept of Corrections to stem violence at Rikers. Their recommendations were to build a piece of software which they built and delivered but it never worked. The software did all sorts of analytics and tried to pick the prisoners who would benefit from their risk violence reduction program. Apart from their sordid failures in building and delivering software, it turns out that their data analysis was outright fraud as they cherrypicked the trial inmates, who were low-violence, to show it worked. This disaster ended up costing NYC 27.5 million. Their recommendations were a dud, the software never worked and violence soared. Ripping NYC for tens of millions and condemning the people with the lowest power - prison inmates - to worse outcomes - that is McKinsey's credo for you. The thing that baffles me is not that the majority of McKinsey consultants would go along with it but there are almost zero whistleblowers. Shows the power of the firm's narrative and the prestige. My hope is enough of these exposes and the prestige of working at McKinsey will be akin to having worked at Enron or a WorldCom. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-mckinsey-millions-to-stem-jail-violence-instead-violence-soared https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-mckins...
- zedderled 6y ago
  Wow, the guy who asked for McKinsey to consult: > Anthony Shorris, and other aides decided to hire a consulting firm. They solicited proposals from firms on a pre-approved list from the previous administration. Despite its lack of corrections experience, McKinsey won the contract. According to Wikipedia, he is also a Senior Advisor to McKinsey & Company. Straight up money grab.

Good article. I followed up on their work with ICE as well and how some members on that team were shocked by the penny pinching on food, medical help and even in illegal areas of due process. Fuck McKinsey. Spreadsheet, growth, models my ass if you do not realize the human factor

konjin 6y ago

I agree with everything said there. It is still the best system for motivating people we have invented. While for aesthetic reasons I still prefer centrally planned command economies where failure is met with a bullet I can't deny that those are terrible once the foundations of a modern society are put in place, e.g. roads, electricity, water, trains, public transport, telecommunications, etc. That said, we would benefit from a decade or two of eco-Stalinism to deal with climate change before going back to normal.

kodyo 6y ago
Presumably, you don't see yourself among those occupying a mass grave.
- konjin 6y ago
  You assume wrong, but there's more to life than living.
  - weare138 6y ago
    You must be fun at parties.
kace91 6y ago
> While for aesthetic reasons I still prefer centrally planned command economies where failure is met with a bullet What the fuck?? I honestly have no words to reply to this, I just couldn't go past the comment since not replying seemed like implicit acceptance that this is a normal thing to read.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I honestly have no words to reply to this, I just couldn't go past the comment since not replying seemed like implicit acceptance that this is a normal thing to read. The correct response is to flag and move on. No reasonable people advocate for Stalinism (even anti-capitalists), and framing critiques of capitalism in a laissez faire vs. Stalinism dichotomy is a a right-wing shibboleth. That makes me think the GP comment is probably properly classed as a kind of internet post that starts with a T and should not be fed.
  - konjin 6y ago
    Considering capitalism is on track to deliver the end of industrial civilization by the start of the 21st century no reasonable people can argue for it. But reasonable people once thought burning witches was a way to end droughts, so maybe instead of following common sense we should listen to scientists and change the political system to one that means our grand children will not have to eat each other?
snypher 6y ago
>roads, electricity, water, trains, public transport, telecommunications Yes because all these examples are working great right now.
- konjin 6y ago
  Yes, I did say we would benefit from a bit of Stalinism.
virtualritz 6y ago
> It is still the best system for motivating people we have invented. What do you refer to by 'system' here, exactly? The political system or the economy one? You sound like you conflate the two.

troughway 6y ago

Why is this shallow outrage piece on the front page? I get it, you’re upset. Preaching to the choir (bonus points because it’s a YC investment substack) is the worst way to deal with it. Sociopath this, narcissism that. Your gif there is right: it’s all so tiresome. Every thread that’s remotely related to health and lifestyle on here has a handful of people saying how Buddhist breathing techniques are a great remedy. Go do some breathing exercises and quit shitposting on a Saturday. If this is what HN is reduced to, feigning some moral drum-up about oh how unfair things are, get off your ass and do something. Leave the damn website for tech related talks please.

tropdrop 6y ago
The more productive conversation isn't around the tone of this particular "outrage piece," but the bombshell it references: The New York Times article about McKinsey's proposal of paying pharmacy companies rebates for OxyContin Overdoses [1] 1 - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-oxycontin-opioids.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/27/business/mckinsey-purdue-...
- troughway 6y ago
  Yes we had our 2 minute of hate thread on it a couple of days ago. Either do something about it or quit feigning outrage by submitting blog posts. It was useless then, it’s useless now. There is no “bombshell” here. It’s on par business for billionaires. Retweeting bullshit doesn’t improve your carbon footprint, get it through your head. You can scream all you want about what McKinsey is doing, but one thing you won't do is enact change by making blog posts with silly gifs inbetween bolded text proclaiming how outraged you are. This is the pharma industry. It's been this way for decades. Don't pretend like you're woke and moralistic in light of this "bombshell" now please, it comes across as trite.
  - ahelwer 6y ago
    Individuals cannot "do something about" issues like this. Even a lone wolf gun attack against a corporate boardroom would see the victims swiftly replaced by ideological clones. Collective action is the only possible route to remedy, and that requires building a common understanding of what the problems are and what should be done about them. Hence the beating of the drum. Having two minutes of hate isn't the goal.

fnord77 6y ago

> Ultimately, when we reduce our fellow man to numbers in a spreadsheet, when we become alienated from them, we have turned them into shadows. And we too, have become shadows. A kind of perverse collectivism emerging out of individualism. Every person, reduced to a shadow.

norswap 6y ago

> To these snakes, people are nothing but numbers to squeeze revenue out of. Spreadsheet sociopathy. If every single consultant and banker disappeared tomorrow, we would be better off. Who's the sociopath I wonder?

elevenoh 6y ago

"Ultimately, when we reduce our fellow man to numbers in a spreadsheet, when we become alienated from them, we have turned them into shadows." The folks I happen to know who work at McKinsey are wrought with insecurity, ego & entitlement. They seem to love the business model of exploiting those most vulnerable.

voisin 6y ago
Confirmed. This is standard fare in business school, undergrad and MBA alike. There’s no academic rigour because everyone passes because the schools treat students as high paying customers who are always right, and then they have a straight shot into consulting or investment banking, ruining the world due to the aforementioned insecurity, ego & entitlement and attraction to exploitation.
- webinvest 6y ago
  That’s hyperbole is incorrect. My generic state university only has a 60% graduation rate and it’s just a regular non-ivy league state university. That means 40% drop out or flunk.

smokefoot 6y ago

I would suggest reading the materials. It’s slightly less insidious than the headlines would have you believe. A couple choice lead lines: “We are committed to lowering average daily doses on OxyContin and will provide higher rebates on prescriptions with higher dose strengths” “We believe in our technology: We will pay additional rebates on any new OxyContin related overdose or opioid use disorder diagnosis” Remember OxyContin was supposed to be less addictive than traditional opoid painkillers. Unfortunately it turned out to still be quite addictive and deadly, but at least this doesn’t indicate that McK or Purdue actually knew that. I guess they probably should have? There’s also a worrying chart showing rising overdose deaths which doesn’t seem to be accompanied by a thoughtful commentary or real analysis of why—it’s just an actuarial exercise.

haltingproblem 6y ago
Purdue is a clinical pharma company. They do extensive testing on their molecular candidates both in-vitro and in-vivo. There is no way they would not have known that OxyContin was more addictive. If memory serves me right there was a whistleblower who claimed that Purdue knew and hid the fact from regulators but I might be mistaken.

golergka 6y ago

Instead of commenting, I'd just want to bring up this brilliant scene from Margin Call: https://youtu.be/2f2kGHcdJYU?t=67 https://youtu.be/2f2kGHcdJYU?t=67

haltingproblem 6y ago

Another famous McKinsey piece-de-art comes to mind - the work they did for the NYC Dept of Corrections to stem violence at Rikers. Their recommendations were to build a piece of software which they built and delivered but it never worked. The software did all sorts of analytics and tried to pick the prisoners who would benefit from their risk violence reduction program. Apart from their sordid failures in building and delivering software, it turns out that their data analysis was outright fraud as they cherrypicked the trial inmates, who were low-violence, to show it worked. This disaster ended up costing NYC 27.5 million. Their recommendations were a dud, the software never worked and violence soared. Ripping NYC for tens of millions and condemning the people with the lowest power - prison inmates - to worse outcomes - that is McKinsey's credo for you. The thing that baffles me is not that the majority of McKinsey consultants would go along with it but there are almost zero whistleblowers. Shows the power of the firm's narrative and the prestige. My hope is enough of these exposes and the prestige of working at McKinsey will be akin to having worked at Enron or a WorldCom. [1] https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-mckinsey-millions-to-stem-jail-violence-instead-violence-soared https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-mckins...

zedderled 6y ago
Wow, the guy who asked for McKinsey to consult: > Anthony Shorris, and other aides decided to hire a consulting firm. They solicited proposals from firms on a pre-approved list from the previous administration. Despite its lack of corrections experience, McKinsey won the contract. According to Wikipedia, he is also a Senior Advisor to McKinsey & Company. Straight up money grab.