5 ms·

Is this actually true? Notifications were in iOS way before OSX, and it seems like that is the actual implementation that eventually made its way into Mountain

by pram 6y ago

Is this actually true? Notifications were in iOS way before OSX, and it seems like that is the actual implementation that eventually made its way into Mountain Lion. I mean, Toast notifications weren't even invented by Growl. It was nice software but this seems like hyperbole lol

Rebelgecko 6y ago
FWIW, Growl predates iOS Edit: also, IIRC Growl was originally called "Notification Center", which is the name that Apple later used for their implementation of similar features Double edit: I should've RTFA which mentions my fun fact
- Someone 6y ago
  IIRC, Growl was created because a similar feature of Mac OS didn’t make it into the first release of Mac OS X (sorry, can’t find pictures or documentation online) If so, I think its developers can’t be completely unhappy about the end result. Also, their code is (3-clause) BSD licensed. If the product lives on in spirit, does it really matter where the code came from?
  - ChrisGrowl 6y ago
    I never used Mac OS until OS X because I wanted a terminal with Unix userland and also ms office. I don’t know what feature you’re talking about and it was not a consideration when coming up with Growl.
  - kergonath 6y ago
    You’re right, but Growl did much more than the notifications in classic MacOS. Also, Apple took their sweet time to get their notification system for OS X.
tosh 6y ago
Growl goes way back, this is an interview from 2006: https://www.osnews.com/story/15442/interview-with-chris-forsythe-of-adium-and-growl/ https://www.osnews.com/story/15442/interview-with-chris-fors...
- ChrisGrowl 6y ago
  Good lord I forgot about that interview. I was so young haha. Growl started around 2003 really
  - kergonath 6y ago
    I’d just like to thank you for your work on Growl, Perian, and Adium. Those were fantastic, provided great functionality and were rock solid. All of them were invaluable. They are always associated with the good time I’ve had tinkering with my computers as a student.
DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
> Toast notifications weren't even invented by Growl Does MSN Messenger get the credit for that?
- ChickeNES 6y ago
  Windows 2000 according to Wikipedia
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    MSN Messenger predates Windows 2000 (July 1999 vs February 2000 respectively).
eyelidlessness 6y ago
It’s possible Apple independently arrived at a design for how to present iOS notifications that just happened to resemble growl in every way... but it’s not likely. Growl was so pervasive before macOS notifications that it’s inconceivable to me that developers at Apple weren’t presenting it as a proven model.
- pram 6y ago
  Uh huh. This is ignoring that notifications were present in webOS, Android, Windows 7, and so on. Or were those able to independently arrive at the exact same design of a toast popup, and Apple uniquely owes the provenance of their toast popup to Growl?
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    Wow, everyone is so fucking combative and contrarian the last few days. Chill out, that's not what I was saying.
    - pram 6y ago
      It seems to be exactly what you're saying?
      - eyelidlessness 6y ago
        I was only saying that it seems pretty likely Apple took inspiration from Growl. Not that they didn’t take inspiration from other prior art, or that Growl didn’t either. They’ve taken similar inspiration from other things on their own platform even where there were multiple inspiration sources available. Spotlight took design direction from Quicksilver even though Enso existed. From Mac OS 8 (or was it 9?) through most of the OS X/macOS span, it took inspiration or cues from WindowShade even though a zillion other minimization styles existed. They literally bought CoverFlow even though a ton of other presentational equivalents existed. It’s not that these ideas don’t flow around everywhere. I was just observing that they likely observed what was already at home on their platform.
addicted 6y ago
I first got into the Mac eco system in the mid 2000s, so I don’t know the entire history of notifications there, but I remember that Growl was pretty much the defacto Mac standard by the late 2000s. Growl and a particular packaging software that provides auto updates had basically become a prerequisite for Mac apps at a certain point.
- pram 6y ago
  Yes, but notification center, added in Mountain Lion, was an exact clone of the iOS 5 notification center. Which at the time was argued to be stolen(!) from Android's notification center design. So did Android steal Growls implementation, as well? That is what is being implied.
- armadsen 6y ago
  The auto updates software you're thinking of is Sparkle, and it's still going strong. Still by far the most common way for Mac developers to do automatic updates for apps distributed outside the Mac App Store. https://sparkle-project.org https://sparkle-project.org
- jevinskie 6y ago
  The update framework is Sparkle and is still widely used. You’re quite right that these two frameworks made important chunks of app functionality Just Work.

by pram 6y ago

Rebelgecko 6y ago

FWIW, Growl predates iOS Edit: also, IIRC Growl was originally called "Notification Center", which is the name that Apple later used for their implementation of similar features Double edit: I should've RTFA which mentions my fun fact

Someone 6y ago
IIRC, Growl was created because a similar feature of Mac OS didn’t make it into the first release of Mac OS X (sorry, can’t find pictures or documentation online) If so, I think its developers can’t be completely unhappy about the end result. Also, their code is (3-clause) BSD licensed. If the product lives on in spirit, does it really matter where the code came from?
- ChrisGrowl 6y ago
  I never used Mac OS until OS X because I wanted a terminal with Unix userland and also ms office. I don’t know what feature you’re talking about and it was not a consideration when coming up with Growl.
- kergonath 6y ago
  You’re right, but Growl did much more than the notifications in classic MacOS. Also, Apple took their sweet time to get their notification system for OS X.

tosh 6y ago

Growl goes way back, this is an interview from 2006: https://www.osnews.com/story/15442/interview-with-chris-forsythe-of-adium-and-growl/ https://www.osnews.com/story/15442/interview-with-chris-fors...

ChrisGrowl 6y ago
Good lord I forgot about that interview. I was so young haha. Growl started around 2003 really
- kergonath 6y ago
  I’d just like to thank you for your work on Growl, Perian, and Adium. Those were fantastic, provided great functionality and were rock solid. All of them were invaluable. They are always associated with the good time I’ve had tinkering with my computers as a student.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago

> Toast notifications weren't even invented by Growl Does MSN Messenger get the credit for that?

ChickeNES 6y ago
Windows 2000 according to Wikipedia
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  MSN Messenger predates Windows 2000 (July 1999 vs February 2000 respectively).

eyelidlessness 6y ago

It’s possible Apple independently arrived at a design for how to present iOS notifications that just happened to resemble growl in every way... but it’s not likely. Growl was so pervasive before macOS notifications that it’s inconceivable to me that developers at Apple weren’t presenting it as a proven model.

pram 6y ago
Uh huh. This is ignoring that notifications were present in webOS, Android, Windows 7, and so on. Or were those able to independently arrive at the exact same design of a toast popup, and Apple uniquely owes the provenance of their toast popup to Growl?
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  Wow, everyone is so fucking combative and contrarian the last few days. Chill out, that's not what I was saying.
  - pram 6y ago
    It seems to be exactly what you're saying?
    - eyelidlessness 6y ago
      I was only saying that it seems pretty likely Apple took inspiration from Growl. Not that they didn’t take inspiration from other prior art, or that Growl didn’t either. They’ve taken similar inspiration from other things on their own platform even where there were multiple inspiration sources available. Spotlight took design direction from Quicksilver even though Enso existed. From Mac OS 8 (or was it 9?) through most of the OS X/macOS span, it took inspiration or cues from WindowShade even though a zillion other minimization styles existed. They literally bought CoverFlow even though a ton of other presentational equivalents existed. It’s not that these ideas don’t flow around everywhere. I was just observing that they likely observed what was already at home on their platform.

addicted 6y ago

I first got into the Mac eco system in the mid 2000s, so I don’t know the entire history of notifications there, but I remember that Growl was pretty much the defacto Mac standard by the late 2000s. Growl and a particular packaging software that provides auto updates had basically become a prerequisite for Mac apps at a certain point.

pram 6y ago
Yes, but notification center, added in Mountain Lion, was an exact clone of the iOS 5 notification center. Which at the time was argued to be stolen(!) from Android's notification center design. So did Android steal Growls implementation, as well? That is what is being implied.
armadsen 6y ago
The auto updates software you're thinking of is Sparkle, and it's still going strong. Still by far the most common way for Mac developers to do automatic updates for apps distributed outside the Mac App Store. https://sparkle-project.org https://sparkle-project.org
jevinskie 6y ago
The update framework is Sparkle and is still widely used. You’re quite right that these two frameworks made important chunks of app functionality Just Work.