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> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. 100% taarof - there was

> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. 100% taarof - there was another Persian with you, and the custom therefore could absolutely not be disregarded with the solo foreigner. Even if you were alone, the mere potential that you might understand the custom compels its use by your hosts. > For one particular example of Iranian friendliness, in college an Iranian friend of mine was concerned that I wasn't eating healthily enough, so every time he saw me after that (most days of the week) he made me sandwiches. Also very likely taarof. Even my mother does this in spite of my persistent requests for her not to (specifically when I invoke my unhealthy relationship with food in order for her to stop) because she feels an obligation to do so in spite of my pleas. It's a custom she can't shake. I'm speaking from direct, immersive experience when I say that the complexities of taarof are very likely to be misinterpreted by those not truly and thoroughly immersed. And it is absolutely one of our culture's worst traditions. It absolutely must go.

AriaMinaei 6y ago
Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.
- eganist 6y ago
  > Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing that takes place in our culture - when people who taarof find themselves having to go through with a false offer, especially one that puts one in a substantially disadvantaged position (the "losing" end of the social transaction), the person on the receiving end often ends up subject to undue scorn down the road, or worse. It's pretty universal. I've seen it in Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver, Great Neck NY, and DC, and every time I've seen both the taarof social transaction as well as borne witness to the resulting backbiting days later. I can count examples on many more hands than I physically have, and while these are all anecdotes, I've got a high level of confidence based on just the sheer volume of interactions I've witnessed that this is one of the single worst aspects of our culture. I apologize if my passion on the topic is coming off a bit too strong. I've seen livelihoods ruined because of it.
  - novok 6y ago
    Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful! Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere. This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why. Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?
    - eganist 6y ago
      > Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior? I'm quite fond of Baha'i culture, honestly. Even though I don't put stock in the religion itself, they seem fairly dedicated towards mental discipline and radical candor (honesty of mind etc). And it's only with these circles of (Persian) friends that I haven't observed the kind of backbiting I've been railing against in my comments here. Really, taarof is exactly as gross as I'm saying it is, because when it goes wrong (and it goes wrong a minority of times but frequently enough to matter), it does so in spectacular fashion. It spawns the kind of vitriol that ruins friendships with grudges, all because someone ended up having to give or do something they didn't want to do but projected for the sake of image. It's unnecessary, it's rarely amusing, and it breeds malcontent. Thanks for listening. I recognize it sounds extreme, but I've never seen anything good come from it in any of the many circles I'm in.
  - openfuture 6y ago
    Weird. I've been to Iran and had many discussions about this custom 'taarof' except(!) it is my _northerner_ custom... no Iranian mentioned they had the same culture and I'm sure someone would have! I talked to kids, expats and others who wouldn't hide such facts. Where I am from a host is obligated to offer a traveler all they can, even if it means they won't survive the winter, the traveler is obligated to decline since it could be that his acceptance of such offerings will starve (kill) his hosts come winter. My insistence on declining kind offers was considered quite rude and I got called out for it a few times, prompting such discussions, absolutely no one ever at any point in time mentioned that there was such a custom in Iran. There seemed to be a universal acknowledgment that the Iranian custom was the opposite; you should accept all offerings and leave leftovers to signal you are done eating because if you finish your food and refuse more it suggests that your host is poor which slights them. Idk if this conspiracy you describe will explain away my experience but just figured I'd share for other readers.
owenversteeg 6y ago
For the invitations, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The GP comment claimed "It is likely that the vast majority of invitations to people's homes were not sincere, and by taking locals up on their not-actually-intended offers, those foreign travelers are probably causing great inconvenience". Furthermore, the concept of being invited into homes is not something foreign to me, I have Couchsurfed in many countries and hosted many Couchsurfers. I have a decent feel for that sort of thing. There is a very large portion of people who actually do want foreigners to come stay at their home, myself included. Is that so difficult to believe? As for the sandwiches: well, he also did it for a fellow Iranian, and I am pretty confident that I wasn't misunderstanding the situation: the guy just has a massive heart, and I've seen him do everything he can to help other people. And as to your opinion about taarof, well, I'll just say that I have met many Iranians that simply regard it harmless, amusing, or an important part of their own culture. Iran is a big country, and just like you can find Americans that hate their own culture's habit of asking "how are you" with no sincerity, there are others that find it important.
mehrdadn 6y ago
> Even my mother does this in spite of my persistent requests for her not to because she feels an obligation to do so in spite of my pleas. Oh dear, this is a really dangerous conflation of 2 different practices. You really ought to distinguish for everyone here instead of trashing the whole culture. You're not talking about the same thing others are talking about. Taarof'ing (pretty literally: "offering") can mean multiple things, and it's critical to distinguish them: 1. Offering things expecting you to refuse them. You know, like you go to pay for a purchase and a shop owner pretends to refuse the payment. In such cases, they would be offended if you accept their offer. 2. Offering things in general (generally food...) because they've just been trained to by the culture. In this case, they're "worried" something negative might happen on your end if they you don't take their offer. (You might be offended, go hungry, not have a place to sleep, etc.) Foreigners talk about #1, but you're talking about #2. And these are VERY different things. Your mom making you sandwiches (effectively forcing you to eat them) is NOT #1. She is NOT offering it to you expecting you to refuse it. (At least not due to taarof; if she might have some other beef with you that's another matter.) If it's either of these, it's #2. And in all likelihood, it would be only partially #2—a lot of it is just her being your mom and being overly enthusiastic (obviously some cultural part to this too) about making sure you're well-fed. However, foreigners care about #1—about offending the person making the offer by accepting the offer. Your mom is emphatically NOT going to be offended if you take the sandwich. Like the native making a sandwich for the person you replied to, she is much wants you to take it and is 100% sincere in that. Heck, she'll be offended if you refuse it!!! Unless I guess, you know, she's doing this for the 500th time and she's hoping you might finally start making the sandwiches yourself, but again, that's only because you're her kid and she wants to see you improve in her eyes, not because of the taarof tradition...
- eganist 6y ago
  It's not conflation; she very definitely gets offended if I don't take it, and I won't go into much more detail here. Your experience with it is just as valid as mine is, and that's as far as I'll take this thread because I don't wish the gatekeep your experience the way you just did mine.

AriaMinaei 6y ago

Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.

eganist 6y ago
> Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing that takes place in our culture - when people who taarof find themselves having to go through with a false offer, especially one that puts one in a substantially disadvantaged position (the "losing" end of the social transaction), the person on the receiving end often ends up subject to undue scorn down the road, or worse. It's pretty universal. I've seen it in Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver, Great Neck NY, and DC, and every time I've seen both the taarof social transaction as well as borne witness to the resulting backbiting days later. I can count examples on many more hands than I physically have, and while these are all anecdotes, I've got a high level of confidence based on just the sheer volume of interactions I've witnessed that this is one of the single worst aspects of our culture. I apologize if my passion on the topic is coming off a bit too strong. I've seen livelihoods ruined because of it.
- novok 6y ago
  Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful! Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere. This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why. Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?
  - eganist 6y ago
    > Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior? I'm quite fond of Baha'i culture, honestly. Even though I don't put stock in the religion itself, they seem fairly dedicated towards mental discipline and radical candor (honesty of mind etc). And it's only with these circles of (Persian) friends that I haven't observed the kind of backbiting I've been railing against in my comments here. Really, taarof is exactly as gross as I'm saying it is, because when it goes wrong (and it goes wrong a minority of times but frequently enough to matter), it does so in spectacular fashion. It spawns the kind of vitriol that ruins friendships with grudges, all because someone ended up having to give or do something they didn't want to do but projected for the sake of image. It's unnecessary, it's rarely amusing, and it breeds malcontent. Thanks for listening. I recognize it sounds extreme, but I've never seen anything good come from it in any of the many circles I'm in.
- openfuture 6y ago
  Weird. I've been to Iran and had many discussions about this custom 'taarof' except(!) it is my _northerner_ custom... no Iranian mentioned they had the same culture and I'm sure someone would have! I talked to kids, expats and others who wouldn't hide such facts. Where I am from a host is obligated to offer a traveler all they can, even if it means they won't survive the winter, the traveler is obligated to decline since it could be that his acceptance of such offerings will starve (kill) his hosts come winter. My insistence on declining kind offers was considered quite rude and I got called out for it a few times, prompting such discussions, absolutely no one ever at any point in time mentioned that there was such a custom in Iran. There seemed to be a universal acknowledgment that the Iranian custom was the opposite; you should accept all offerings and leave leftovers to signal you are done eating because if you finish your food and refuse more it suggests that your host is poor which slights them. Idk if this conspiracy you describe will explain away my experience but just figured I'd share for other readers.

owenversteeg 6y ago

For the invitations, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The GP comment claimed "It is likely that the vast majority of invitations to people's homes were not sincere, and by taking locals up on their not-actually-intended offers, those foreign travelers are probably causing great inconvenience". Furthermore, the concept of being invited into homes is not something foreign to me, I have Couchsurfed in many countries and hosted many Couchsurfers. I have a decent feel for that sort of thing. There is a very large portion of people who actually do want foreigners to come stay at their home, myself included. Is that so difficult to believe? As for the sandwiches: well, he also did it for a fellow Iranian, and I am pretty confident that I wasn't misunderstanding the situation: the guy just has a massive heart, and I've seen him do everything he can to help other people. And as to your opinion about taarof, well, I'll just say that I have met many Iranians that simply regard it harmless, amusing, or an important part of their own culture. Iran is a big country, and just like you can find Americans that hate their own culture's habit of asking "how are you" with no sincerity, there are others that find it important.

mehrdadn 6y ago

> Even my mother does this in spite of my persistent requests for her not to because she feels an obligation to do so in spite of my pleas. Oh dear, this is a really dangerous conflation of 2 different practices. You really ought to distinguish for everyone here instead of trashing the whole culture. You're not talking about the same thing others are talking about. Taarof'ing (pretty literally: "offering") can mean multiple things, and it's critical to distinguish them: 1. Offering things expecting you to refuse them. You know, like you go to pay for a purchase and a shop owner pretends to refuse the payment. In such cases, they would be offended if you accept their offer. 2. Offering things in general (generally food...) because they've just been trained to by the culture. In this case, they're "worried" something negative might happen on your end if they you don't take their offer. (You might be offended, go hungry, not have a place to sleep, etc.) Foreigners talk about #1, but you're talking about #2. And these are VERY different things. Your mom making you sandwiches (effectively forcing you to eat them) is NOT #1. She is NOT offering it to you expecting you to refuse it. (At least not due to taarof; if she might have some other beef with you that's another matter.) If it's either of these, it's #2. And in all likelihood, it would be only partially #2—a lot of it is just her being your mom and being overly enthusiastic (obviously some cultural part to this too) about making sure you're well-fed. However, foreigners care about #1—about offending the person making the offer by accepting the offer. Your mom is emphatically NOT going to be offended if you take the sandwich. Like the native making a sandwich for the person you replied to, she is much wants you to take it and is 100% sincere in that. Heck, she'll be offended if you refuse it!!! Unless I guess, you know, she's doing this for the 500th time and she's hoping you might finally start making the sandwiches yourself, but again, that's only because you're her kid and she wants to see you improve in her eyes, not because of the taarof tradition...

eganist 6y ago
It's not conflation; she very definitely gets offended if I don't take it, and I won't go into much more detail here. Your experience with it is just as valid as mine is, and that's as far as I'll take this thread because I don't wish the gatekeep your experience the way you just did mine.