5 ms·

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to

Wow, I very strongly disagree. First of all, as for learning the language, I have no idea why taarof would be an impediment. I mean, I guess if your plan is to exchange a handful of words with a ton of different people, taarof might make up a noticeable portion of your communication, but in language learning it's far better to speak with fewer people and try to have longer conversations. Otherwise you'll never move past the basics. I've been to Iran and taarof never even crossed my mind as a possible impediment to learning the language. (Amusingly, I stayed with some Iranians that didn't speak anything I spoke, so I was forced to learn some Farsi, which was a lovely time!) And the Iranian people _are_ very hospitable, taarof aside. When I traveled to Iran I was invited into many homes, and I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. For one particular example of Iranian friendliness, in college an Iranian friend of mine was concerned that I wasn't eating healthily enough, so every time he saw me after that (most days of the week) he made me sandwiches. Furthermore, taarof is part of the Iranian culture. These little cultural differences are what makes this world beautiful, and not some mass of efficiently-communicating Soylent-drinking robots.

eganist 6y ago
> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. 100% taarof - there was another Persian with you, and the custom therefore could absolutely not be disregarded with the solo foreigner. Even if you were alone, the mere potential that you might understand the custom compels its use by your hosts. > For one particular example of Iranian friendliness, in college an Iranian friend of mine was concerned that I wasn't eating healthily enough, so every time he saw me after that (most days of the week) he made me sandwiches. Also very likely taarof. Even my mother does this in spite of my persistent requests for her not to (specifically when I invoke my unhealthy relationship with food in order for her to stop) because she feels an obligation to do so in spite of my pleas. It's a custom she can't shake. I'm speaking from direct, immersive experience when I say that the complexities of taarof are very likely to be misinterpreted by those not truly and thoroughly immersed. And it is absolutely one of our culture's worst traditions. It absolutely must go.
- AriaMinaei 6y ago
  Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.
  - eganist 6y ago
    > Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing that takes place in our culture - when people who taarof find themselves having to go through with a false offer, especially one that puts one in a substantially disadvantaged position (the "losing" end of the social transaction), the person on the receiving end often ends up subject to undue scorn down the road, or worse. It's pretty universal. I've seen it in Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver, Great Neck NY, and DC, and every time I've seen both the taarof social transaction as well as borne witness to the resulting backbiting days later. I can count examples on many more hands than I physically have, and while these are all anecdotes, I've got a high level of confidence based on just the sheer volume of interactions I've witnessed that this is one of the single worst aspects of our culture. I apologize if my passion on the topic is coming off a bit too strong. I've seen livelihoods ruined because of it.
    - novok 6y ago
      Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful! Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere. This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why. Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?
motoboi 6y ago
> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating This made me wonder what taarof prescribes about translating taarof prescribed offers.
- EB-Barrington 6y ago
  When in Iran, I will often need to, discretely, in English, whisper to a local Iranian friend "is this tarof?". What hasn't been mentioned so far - even local Iranians are not always 100% certain if a situation is involving tarof or not.
  - kweks 6y ago
    The key phrase being: taroof na konid (let's not do taroof).. But even that can make the other party think you're levelling up the 'taroof'..
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Tarof isn't an impediment to learning the language, but it is an annoyance that a foreigner would have to constantly deal with if he chose Iran for a place to immerse himself in the language. > Furthermore, taarof is part of the Iranian culture. These little cultural differences are what makes this world beautiful... Even Iranians themselves often don't find tarof beautiful. One might claim that tarof is a "part of Iranian culture" in the same way that chewing paan is "part of Indian culture", i.e. it's ubiquitous, but even many local people would find the world a better place without it.
- owenversteeg 6y ago
  Yes, of course there are Iranians on both sides of the issue, but from what I can tell the vast majority of its critics are a handful of young Iranians living outside of Iran. My experience is that Iranians in Iran are favorable towards taarof and big users of it, and Iranians outside of Iran are very pessimistic about it, as they generally are about most things Iran-related.
  - behnamoh 6y ago
    > as they generally are about most things Iran-related. While I agree with the rest of your comment, as an Iranian, I cannot completely agree with this part. Many Iranians living abroad actually miss these little social cues, and if there aren't Persian restaurants and neighborhoods in their city, they become homesick easier than, say, the Indians and the Chinese. Being able to at least practice some of these social cues would help them avoid that problem and feel like _home_ in a foreign culture. Side note: Comparing the American and Iranian culture, lots of things are similar (people want to have a happy life and provide for their family). But the US culture is much more _individualistic_ than Iran. So if you come here from Iran, people - despite being generally good and nice - might seem distant at first. Once you settle in the new society however, you learn that there are other ways of life as well, and you start to appreciate the things in the new culture that were rare back home. For example, Americans are generally careful about following the rules and the law, which is kinda missed in Iran, because many Iranians are ok with being _flexible_ with the rules. In Iran I always found that annoying, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that in the US. This of course does not mean that I would find most Iran-related things wrong/problematic.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
...and not some mass of efficiently-communicating Soylent-drinking robots. <- That made me smile :)

eganist 6y ago

> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating. 100% taarof - there was another Persian with you, and the custom therefore could absolutely not be disregarded with the solo foreigner. Even if you were alone, the mere potential that you might understand the custom compels its use by your hosts. > For one particular example of Iranian friendliness, in college an Iranian friend of mine was concerned that I wasn't eating healthily enough, so every time he saw me after that (most days of the week) he made me sandwiches. Also very likely taarof. Even my mother does this in spite of my persistent requests for her not to (specifically when I invoke my unhealthy relationship with food in order for her to stop) because she feels an obligation to do so in spite of my pleas. It's a custom she can't shake. I'm speaking from direct, immersive experience when I say that the complexities of taarof are very likely to be misinterpreted by those not truly and thoroughly immersed. And it is absolutely one of our culture's worst traditions. It absolutely must go.

AriaMinaei 6y ago
Could it be that the extreme forms of taarof you’re seeing happens in some sort of social bubble? I grew up in Iran, I’ve seen and lived with taarof, and I’ve never experienced kind of insincerity you’re describing. Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. The invitations and other acts of generosity on the other hand, have always been sincere.
- eganist 6y ago
  > Taarof has always been a short back and forth to be gotten over with. This is how it appears when you haven't had a chance to study it in depth, but the dark magic of taarof is that it impacts every part of life. No fault of yours; it's so deeply infected our culture as to be practically invisible to anyone who's a part of it. That's also why I mention the patently ridiculous level of backbiting and backstabbing that takes place in our culture - when people who taarof find themselves having to go through with a false offer, especially one that puts one in a substantially disadvantaged position (the "losing" end of the social transaction), the person on the receiving end often ends up subject to undue scorn down the road, or worse. It's pretty universal. I've seen it in Tehran, Esfahan, Shiraz, Los Angeles, Toronto, Vancouver, Great Neck NY, and DC, and every time I've seen both the taarof social transaction as well as borne witness to the resulting backbiting days later. I can count examples on many more hands than I physically have, and while these are all anecdotes, I've got a high level of confidence based on just the sheer volume of interactions I've witnessed that this is one of the single worst aspects of our culture. I apologize if my passion on the topic is coming off a bit too strong. I've seen livelihoods ruined because of it.
  - novok 6y ago
    Wow this is nuts. This is the first time I've ever seen such hardcore dislike of taarof. Usually it's referred back as a source of comedy and most people get whats going on fairly quickly. Persians get big houses and you pretty much go on a rotation to dinner party after dinner party. I remember my mom talking about it in her childhood too, especially around nawruz, and with the smaller community I was around it happened in a way, maybe not a few times a weeks but at least monthly. They're wonderful! Does it result in vain status competitions too? Oh yes, but every culture finds a way to present a status competition somewhere. This why the 'persian palace' trend among first generation immigrants in LA is a thing BTW if anyone else was wondering why. Maybe try avoiding the toxic groups you are with? There are toxic groups in every culture that you might be conflating with the culture. Go find some Baha'is where the 'backbiting is the most great sin' puts a tamper on the behavior?

motoboi 6y ago

> I know the invitations were sincere because I was being accompanied by Iranian acquaintances most of the time, doing the translating This made me wonder what taarof prescribes about translating taarof prescribed offers.

EB-Barrington 6y ago
When in Iran, I will often need to, discretely, in English, whisper to a local Iranian friend "is this tarof?". What hasn't been mentioned so far - even local Iranians are not always 100% certain if a situation is involving tarof or not.
- kweks 6y ago
  The key phrase being: taroof na konid (let's not do taroof).. But even that can make the other party think you're levelling up the 'taroof'..

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

Tarof isn't an impediment to learning the language, but it is an annoyance that a foreigner would have to constantly deal with if he chose Iran for a place to immerse himself in the language. > Furthermore, taarof is part of the Iranian culture. These little cultural differences are what makes this world beautiful... Even Iranians themselves often don't find tarof beautiful. One might claim that tarof is a "part of Iranian culture" in the same way that chewing paan is "part of Indian culture", i.e. it's ubiquitous, but even many local people would find the world a better place without it.

owenversteeg 6y ago
Yes, of course there are Iranians on both sides of the issue, but from what I can tell the vast majority of its critics are a handful of young Iranians living outside of Iran. My experience is that Iranians in Iran are favorable towards taarof and big users of it, and Iranians outside of Iran are very pessimistic about it, as they generally are about most things Iran-related.
- behnamoh 6y ago
  > as they generally are about most things Iran-related. While I agree with the rest of your comment, as an Iranian, I cannot completely agree with this part. Many Iranians living abroad actually miss these little social cues, and if there aren't Persian restaurants and neighborhoods in their city, they become homesick easier than, say, the Indians and the Chinese. Being able to at least practice some of these social cues would help them avoid that problem and feel like _home_ in a foreign culture. Side note: Comparing the American and Iranian culture, lots of things are similar (people want to have a happy life and provide for their family). But the US culture is much more _individualistic_ than Iran. So if you come here from Iran, people - despite being generally good and nice - might seem distant at first. Once you settle in the new society however, you learn that there are other ways of life as well, and you start to appreciate the things in the new culture that were rare back home. For example, Americans are generally careful about following the rules and the law, which is kinda missed in Iran, because many Iranians are ok with being _flexible_ with the rules. In Iran I always found that annoying, and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that in the US. This of course does not mean that I would find most Iran-related things wrong/problematic.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

...and not some mass of efficiently-communicating Soylent-drinking robots. <- That made me smile :)