3 ms·

I feel this article actually does not go far enough, or perhaps is not really intended to reach the designers of linux distros, but I certainly feel it today. I

I feel this article actually does not go far enough, or perhaps is not really intended to reach the designers of linux distros, but I certainly feel it today. I am an old hat linux admin, started in 1992 from minix when I read the announcement on usenix. I have been using linux probably since day 2... I recently installed the shiny new Mint 20. I have a lot of experiences that the fictitious cook with the kitchen inspector has. Am I just getting old? Do I just want the kids off my lawn? Why is it so damn hard to find anything now? Case in point, I was using a pretty old distro on my computer, one of those dang mini-itx jobs where the BT and WIFI are impossible to turn off from the bios, but you turn them off in software. Of course, on the old linux, they were just off, you had to configure them. Well, I am hardwired in my house (again, maybe I am too old and need to be killed?) and I do not use wifi for my servers/workstations. Install Mint 20, well, first off, it wants to do WIFI, nope. Hrm, open a terminal, why isn't the wired connection getting an IP? I know, beyond all reason, that my dhcp server is working. I try to do my normal config or look in /etc... nope. It is controlled by some kind of automagic thing now. Ill just get on the inter... oh, yeah, its off. So I look around the gui, that config does not show why it is not coming on? Where is the normal "turn this on/off button in the gui? Why am I using the gui? Oh, right, my old method is long gone now" I feel like although this example could be trivial, but a lot of things seemed to have gone away. I will not rehash the systemd vs init discussion here, but it sure seemed like a lot of configs used to be easier. Here are a few that come to mind: My dns was just one text file away. My network config was a very simple cli change away. I want to change my prompt... wow, why is it referenced in 5 places in this bash file now? My path is referenced all over the place... what happened here, I will just check with the set command. OMG, what is all this stuff now? I think in our quest to make things "easier" for people, we made it a lot more difficult for those who want to change a few things and use the computer.

pram 6y ago
TBH you made the decision to install a distro that literally markets itself as 'easy to use' There are plenty of ancient distros that still need tons of manual janitoring. Slackware is still updated. OpenBSD exists. LFS is always an option. Go out and make your graybeard UNIX dreams of lovingly handcrafted network configs a reality!
- dralley 6y ago
  Exactly. You don't even need to go "ancient" to get that level of manual control, Arch exists, Gentoo exists, Debian is pretty close.
  - rubatuga 6y ago
    I agree, Debian with `ifupdown` installed is pretty standard.
    - topranks 6y ago
      ifupdown2 ftw
  - readingnews 6y ago
    I have used Gentoo since 2000, takes too long now, I am too busy... Debian does not have the audio stuffs I need, and getting caught in compile dependency circles was bad. For some reason, even the maintainers and the audio software group could not get the package working on Debian. I had to back off and go to Mint. I suppose this sounds like a counter argument to me wanting control... but I will admit I am in a special situation in that I want more control, but I use very specialized software that has issues with old or very bleeding edge distros.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  This is really just the age old "you chose the wrong distro!" argument that Linux evangelists have used for 2 decades now to dismiss criticism. If parent had instead said that they were having trouble getting some software working because of a system library conflict, you'd admonish them for using a distro meant for hackers instead of one of the "easy" distros. The point being: why should anyone have to choose between these two extremes? Why can't things be both simple and functional?
  - pram 6y ago
    Simple and functional are completely subjective. To answer your question: they have to choose because there are dozens, if not hundreds of options to choose from. That is like one of the most common espoused benefits of the platform, from Linux evangelists and open source maximalists alike! Apparently you are unable to differentiate between nostalgia and an actual technical issue. Yeah, I remember sysv init too! Why should I have to choose between that and systemd??? That isn't exactly the same as having a library issue. hth
loopz 6y ago
This do sound like OMG something changed. Get off my lawn! Only thing I had to do with my Mint install is workaround some sound issue. Mileage may vary though, and this has been true since day 2. In order to have something work smoother, ie. supporting laptop/tablet usage, something had to change. It's always been annoying but at least you can even recompile the kernel.
luord 6y ago
> I feel this article actually does not go far enough [...] I think in our quest to make things "easier" for people, we made it a lot more difficult for those who want to change a few things and use the computer. IMO, if the article didn't "go far enough" because it didn't talk about something like this, then the article made the right choice. "Using Linux" doesn't mean "using linux mint". For example: The three or four times I've bothered to reinstall my OS in the past eight years, I just install the minimal, CLI version of debian, and then proceed to install exclusively what I want on top of it. Seems like that's more or less what you would want to do. Of course, your situation might be different and you might not have the opportunity to do that, but I hope this helps at least somewhat.

pram 6y ago

TBH you made the decision to install a distro that literally markets itself as 'easy to use' There are plenty of ancient distros that still need tons of manual janitoring. Slackware is still updated. OpenBSD exists. LFS is always an option. Go out and make your graybeard UNIX dreams of lovingly handcrafted network configs a reality!

dralley 6y ago
Exactly. You don't even need to go "ancient" to get that level of manual control, Arch exists, Gentoo exists, Debian is pretty close.
- rubatuga 6y ago
  I agree, Debian with `ifupdown` installed is pretty standard.
  - topranks 6y ago
    ifupdown2 ftw
- readingnews 6y ago
  I have used Gentoo since 2000, takes too long now, I am too busy... Debian does not have the audio stuffs I need, and getting caught in compile dependency circles was bad. For some reason, even the maintainers and the audio software group could not get the package working on Debian. I had to back off and go to Mint. I suppose this sounds like a counter argument to me wanting control... but I will admit I am in a special situation in that I want more control, but I use very specialized software that has issues with old or very bleeding edge distros.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
This is really just the age old "you chose the wrong distro!" argument that Linux evangelists have used for 2 decades now to dismiss criticism. If parent had instead said that they were having trouble getting some software working because of a system library conflict, you'd admonish them for using a distro meant for hackers instead of one of the "easy" distros. The point being: why should anyone have to choose between these two extremes? Why can't things be both simple and functional?
- pram 6y ago
  Simple and functional are completely subjective. To answer your question: they have to choose because there are dozens, if not hundreds of options to choose from. That is like one of the most common espoused benefits of the platform, from Linux evangelists and open source maximalists alike! Apparently you are unable to differentiate between nostalgia and an actual technical issue. Yeah, I remember sysv init too! Why should I have to choose between that and systemd??? That isn't exactly the same as having a library issue. hth

loopz 6y ago

This do sound like OMG something changed. Get off my lawn! Only thing I had to do with my Mint install is workaround some sound issue. Mileage may vary though, and this has been true since day 2. In order to have something work smoother, ie. supporting laptop/tablet usage, something had to change. It's always been annoying but at least you can even recompile the kernel.

luord 6y ago

> I feel this article actually does not go far enough [...] I think in our quest to make things "easier" for people, we made it a lot more difficult for those who want to change a few things and use the computer. IMO, if the article didn't "go far enough" because it didn't talk about something like this, then the article made the right choice. "Using Linux" doesn't mean "using linux mint". For example: The three or four times I've bothered to reinstall my OS in the past eight years, I just install the minimal, CLI version of debian, and then proceed to install exclusively what I want on top of it. Seems like that's more or less what you would want to do. Of course, your situation might be different and you might not have the opportunity to do that, but I hope this helps at least somewhat.