4 ms·

> loss of functionality when features I use aren't popular enough to warrant continued inclusion in products Jeus Fcking Ch*ist THIS. Especially with trivial

> loss of functionality when features I use aren't popular enough to warrant continued inclusion in products Jeus Fcking Ch*ist THIS. Especially with trivial things like a lite-mode vs this strange fad of dark-mode by default. Dark mode was created to save energy in CRTs. And anyways it gives some people headaches, like me.

Koenvh 6y ago
Is it really trivial to support both dark and light interfaces though? It may be for command line interfaces, but for anything with a GUI and custom colours it means creating every element twice. Things like shadow work on light interfaces, but not on dark.
- Asooka 6y ago
  It used to be trivial, because the OS had a configurable palette for GUI elements, which every single program followed, because it used the standard platform GUI toolkit. So going dark or light mode for the entire desktop was as trivial as choosing it from a drop-down menu. Or you could have it pink or green or a horrible mishmash of colour that made you go crosseyed. You could even change font sizes so if you had trouble seeing, like maybe you had cataracts, you could have huge letters on highly contrasting background.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    This has never been true if your computer ran "creative" software. Video editing, music creation tools almost never used "the standard platform GUI toolkit" (even Apple has/had their own internal kit used for apps like Logic). It also stopped being true (or became less true) when cross-platform development became important to some developers and some users, meaning that deeply integrating your application with whatever system a particular platform had was less important than making sure it ran reasonably consistently across platforms.
    - smallstepforman 6y ago
      A platform native video editor (no cross platform capability), which uses native GUI toolkit would look something like this: https://discuss.haiku-os.org/uploads/default/original/2X/9/9090638aec5002d74dd7a8ee4b9051d7039ec17a.jpeg https://discuss.haiku-os.org/uploads/default/original/2X/9/9...
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Sonic Foundry (then to some extent Madison, then Sony, then MAGIX) made creative tools that used the native widgets to a pretty good extent.
    - kleer001 6y ago
      All the visual effects software I use have light and dark modes.
    - jcelerier 6y ago
      If you use Qt it will use your system theme and colours no matter which OS you run your app on, unless you (the dev) overrides the style manually. I'd believe that's the case for wxWidgets too.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        It's not about Qt's ability to pick up system theme & colors (although not also that the configurability mentioned in TFA goes somewhat beyond what is typically offered by modern desktop environments). It's about whether or not the application uses custom elements (or even just puts everything in a Canvas and draws everything itself).
- cgriswald 6y ago
  In context, this is about continuing to support pre-existing light vs dark mode rather than removing it; meaning the non-trivial stuff has already been solved and implemented. If done correctly, continuing to support it should be trivial. Whether it is in practice...
- hedora 6y ago
  At the risk of failing a turing test and being lectured about human eyeballs: What people asked for: choose between black on white or white on black. What people got: dark gray on off color gray mode, or light gray on off color gray mode. Simply having + honoring a system color scheme is a 100% solution, but then the designers and marketing folks wouldn’t have anything to focus on while they avoid improving the actual product.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  FFS in windows 95 I could make my whole OS pink if I wanted. Why would that be complicated ? E.g. in Linux I set a dark mode in KDE and all the apps I use follow it and it works just fine. What kind of weird UI has shadows ? Apps are not websites.
  - rcxdude 6y ago
    even on windows 95 it didn't always work very well. The main problem is getting people to actually test their custom widgets under different color schemes.
viraptor 6y ago
> Dark mode was created to save energy in CRTs. It's one possible use. But the recent trend is about esthetics / usability, not energy savings. Some people prefer light some dark. It probably mostly depends on their work desk environment/lighting. Ideally apps should support both and take the cue from the system settings - we've got proper APIs for that.
- corty 6y ago
  Dark/light mode is just the most minimal version of theme support possible. It is a small bounce-back from the transition that happened about 10 years ago, from themeable pick-your-everything GUIs like winXP to our-designers-know-best unconfigurables like iOS.
novok 6y ago
Dark mode saves energy on OLED displays. It also saves energy on FALD backlights and will save energy with upcoming microLED displays. It's also nice when your looking at your device in a dark room. Light mode is nice when your in a bright room or outdoors during the day. I think apple started the trend because their devices were going OLED to improve battery life. I think dark and light mode are good and basically all apps should have both. That way if you hate one or the other you can always turn on the mode you like.
- noisem4ker 6y ago
  Of course, nobody seems to remember Android 4's design language, Holo, had a light and a dark theme. For the exact same reason too: the Nexus phones were pioneering OLED displays.
- chrismorgan 6y ago
  Apple didn’t start any dark mode trend. They’ve actually been on the trailing edge in such matters, rather than the leading edge. There’s been a repeating cycle of rigidity, followed by flexible theming support, then back to rigidity by way of allowing apps to control things, then introducing a new kind of theming support (always weaker than the last iteration); and each time you introduce the new hotness, it’s touted as a groundbreaking revolution, completely ignoring the fact that ten and twenty years ago the system probably had the same functionality. Windows has gone through a couple of iterations of this loop; Android has as well; macOS has too, though it was never as strong as Windows’; Windows Phone was always dark; iOS never really gave the flexibility before last year. In the current cycle, Windows and Android both had it for more than a year before Apple. I think the dark mode theming capacity will probably be more permanent this time through, but it could still fizzle out within ten years.

Koenvh 6y ago

Is it really trivial to support both dark and light interfaces though? It may be for command line interfaces, but for anything with a GUI and custom colours it means creating every element twice. Things like shadow work on light interfaces, but not on dark.

Asooka 6y ago
It used to be trivial, because the OS had a configurable palette for GUI elements, which every single program followed, because it used the standard platform GUI toolkit. So going dark or light mode for the entire desktop was as trivial as choosing it from a drop-down menu. Or you could have it pink or green or a horrible mishmash of colour that made you go crosseyed. You could even change font sizes so if you had trouble seeing, like maybe you had cataracts, you could have huge letters on highly contrasting background.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  This has never been true if your computer ran "creative" software. Video editing, music creation tools almost never used "the standard platform GUI toolkit" (even Apple has/had their own internal kit used for apps like Logic). It also stopped being true (or became less true) when cross-platform development became important to some developers and some users, meaning that deeply integrating your application with whatever system a particular platform had was less important than making sure it ran reasonably consistently across platforms.
  - smallstepforman 6y ago
    A platform native video editor (no cross platform capability), which uses native GUI toolkit would look something like this: https://discuss.haiku-os.org/uploads/default/original/2X/9/9090638aec5002d74dd7a8ee4b9051d7039ec17a.jpeg https://discuss.haiku-os.org/uploads/default/original/2X/9/9...
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Sonic Foundry (then to some extent Madison, then Sony, then MAGIX) made creative tools that used the native widgets to a pretty good extent.
  - kleer001 6y ago
    All the visual effects software I use have light and dark modes.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    If you use Qt it will use your system theme and colours no matter which OS you run your app on, unless you (the dev) overrides the style manually. I'd believe that's the case for wxWidgets too.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      It's not about Qt's ability to pick up system theme & colors (although not also that the configurability mentioned in TFA goes somewhat beyond what is typically offered by modern desktop environments). It's about whether or not the application uses custom elements (or even just puts everything in a Canvas and draws everything itself).
cgriswald 6y ago
In context, this is about continuing to support pre-existing light vs dark mode rather than removing it; meaning the non-trivial stuff has already been solved and implemented. If done correctly, continuing to support it should be trivial. Whether it is in practice...
hedora 6y ago
At the risk of failing a turing test and being lectured about human eyeballs: What people asked for: choose between black on white or white on black. What people got: dark gray on off color gray mode, or light gray on off color gray mode. Simply having + honoring a system color scheme is a 100% solution, but then the designers and marketing folks wouldn’t have anything to focus on while they avoid improving the actual product.
jcelerier 6y ago
FFS in windows 95 I could make my whole OS pink if I wanted. Why would that be complicated ? E.g. in Linux I set a dark mode in KDE and all the apps I use follow it and it works just fine. What kind of weird UI has shadows ? Apps are not websites.
- rcxdude 6y ago
  even on windows 95 it didn't always work very well. The main problem is getting people to actually test their custom widgets under different color schemes.

viraptor 6y ago

> Dark mode was created to save energy in CRTs. It's one possible use. But the recent trend is about esthetics / usability, not energy savings. Some people prefer light some dark. It probably mostly depends on their work desk environment/lighting. Ideally apps should support both and take the cue from the system settings - we've got proper APIs for that.

corty 6y ago
Dark/light mode is just the most minimal version of theme support possible. It is a small bounce-back from the transition that happened about 10 years ago, from themeable pick-your-everything GUIs like winXP to our-designers-know-best unconfigurables like iOS.

novok 6y ago

Dark mode saves energy on OLED displays. It also saves energy on FALD backlights and will save energy with upcoming microLED displays. It's also nice when your looking at your device in a dark room. Light mode is nice when your in a bright room or outdoors during the day. I think apple started the trend because their devices were going OLED to improve battery life. I think dark and light mode are good and basically all apps should have both. That way if you hate one or the other you can always turn on the mode you like.

noisem4ker 6y ago
Of course, nobody seems to remember Android 4's design language, Holo, had a light and a dark theme. For the exact same reason too: the Nexus phones were pioneering OLED displays.
chrismorgan 6y ago
Apple didn’t start any dark mode trend. They’ve actually been on the trailing edge in such matters, rather than the leading edge. There’s been a repeating cycle of rigidity, followed by flexible theming support, then back to rigidity by way of allowing apps to control things, then introducing a new kind of theming support (always weaker than the last iteration); and each time you introduce the new hotness, it’s touted as a groundbreaking revolution, completely ignoring the fact that ten and twenty years ago the system probably had the same functionality. Windows has gone through a couple of iterations of this loop; Android has as well; macOS has too, though it was never as strong as Windows’; Windows Phone was always dark; iOS never really gave the flexibility before last year. In the current cycle, Windows and Android both had it for more than a year before Apple. I think the dark mode theming capacity will probably be more permanent this time through, but it could still fizzle out within ten years.