2 ms·

Above you asked about hypothetical fatality rates. We could just as easily ask about the economic and social damage caused by the lockdowns. Instead of indulgin

Above you asked about hypothetical fatality rates. We could just as easily ask about the economic and social damage caused by the lockdowns. Instead of indulging alarmist hypotheticals, we can look at some of the data available. According to the CDC, there's a 99.97% survival rate for all Americans between the ages of 20-49. This includes people who are already unhealthy. The total number of deaths in Sweden hasn't increased, despite their lack of lockdowns. https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-... We both seem to agree that lockdowns represent a departure from our ideals of individual liberties. If I am reading you correctly, you're asking for a more gradient interpretation of these. We can agree to disagree here and move on to questioning the efficacy of the lockdowns themselves. If you're suggesting that the ends justify the means, fine. But if the means aren't especially effective at reducing deaths that argument falls apart. Excuse my cynicism, but it isn't hard to imagine the 'ends' as yet another assault on personal freedoms and the agency of individuals. Here the concept of the ends justifying the means fits perfectly. Unfortunately, this perspective isn't out of place with the trend of a growing security state.

lukifer 6y ago
To be clear: I was neither advocating for or against lockdowns. I'm advocating thoughtfulness of trade-offs, informed by (but not limited to) data; as opposed to rigid ideology, or knee-jerk gut reactions. And in particular: to recognize that even if one believes that the data of a specific real-world circumstance clearly favors one end of the spectrum, there are also circumstances where the data can break the other way. Therefore we need to be tolerant and open-minded to good-faith skepticism in either direction. The fact that a wrong answer can be fatal makes it all the more important to avoid what Daniel Schmachtenberger refers to as "limbic highjacking", or more colloquially, "being triggered" (which includes both fear of death, and fear of losing autonomy). > ends justifying the means... the trend of a growing security state It's also worth remembering that these are not mutually exclusive: that circumstances exist where the ends do justify the means, yet are also used as a cynical power grab with additional negative externalities. Again, the only way to know the difference is dispassionate discernment (what Julia Galef refers to as "scout mindset" rather than "soldier mindset" [0]). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYEtQ5Zdn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYEtQ5Zdn8
mLuby 6y ago
Let's look not at all death rates over the past 10 years, but at deaths from COVID-19[1]: Norway [locked down]: 6.17 deaths/100K people Sweden [no lockdown]: 65.61 deaths/100K people [1] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality as of November 28, 2020 at 03:00 AM EST.

lukifer 6y ago

To be clear: I was neither advocating for or against lockdowns. I'm advocating thoughtfulness of trade-offs, informed by (but not limited to) data; as opposed to rigid ideology, or knee-jerk gut reactions. And in particular: to recognize that even if one believes that the data of a specific real-world circumstance clearly favors one end of the spectrum, there are also circumstances where the data can break the other way. Therefore we need to be tolerant and open-minded to good-faith skepticism in either direction. The fact that a wrong answer can be fatal makes it all the more important to avoid what Daniel Schmachtenberger refers to as "limbic highjacking", or more colloquially, "being triggered" (which includes both fear of death, and fear of losing autonomy). > ends justifying the means... the trend of a growing security state It's also worth remembering that these are not mutually exclusive: that circumstances exist where the ends do justify the means, yet are also used as a cynical power grab with additional negative externalities. Again, the only way to know the difference is dispassionate discernment (what Julia Galef refers to as "scout mindset" rather than "soldier mindset" [0]). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYEtQ5Zdn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MYEtQ5Zdn8

mLuby 6y ago

Let's look not at all death rates over the past 10 years, but at deaths from COVID-19[1]: Norway [locked down]: 6.17 deaths/100K people Sweden [no lockdown]: 65.61 deaths/100K people [1] https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality as of November 28, 2020 at 03:00 AM EST.