31 ms·

The Persian Art of Etiquette (2016)

112 points by monort 6y ago

blendo 6y ago
Tarof in an intersection: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvzW1WZsN4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvzW1WZsN4
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- aminozuur 6y ago
  lmfao
- kamyarg 6y ago
  This might seem like exaggerating to many, but this is more true than not. fun fact: tarof also exists in Turkish culture, they just don't have a specific word for it.
- coolgeek 6y ago
  OMG, the barbecue on the passenger seat! The attention to detail in this sketch is glorious. And that's coming from a westerner who never heard of tarof before this. So I'm probably missing even more of the detail that actually exists in it.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Tarof is so infuriating that, if you are a foreigner who wants to learn Persian, going to Tajikistan instead might be recommended: I don't know if the practice never quite existed there in such an extreme form, or the Soviets stamped it out, but communicating with Tajiks is always so much more straightforward than with Iranians. What always apalls me is foreigners traveling in Iran who rave about how hospitable the local people are, without bothering to learn about tarof. It is likely that the vast majority of invitations to people's homes were not sincere, and by taking locals up on their not-actually-intended offers, those foreign travelers are probably causing great inconvenience (which their hosts will however do their best to mask).
- rvense 6y ago
  Tajikistan is a very different vibe to Iran, though. There's not much cosmopolitan about Dushambe. Also, if you learn to speak like a Tajik, Iranians will probably think you're dim, or at least sound like it. But yeah, I remember eating out alone in one of my first nights in Iran, so already marked as a weirdo, of course, and the waiter says "Qabel nadare!" when I ask for the bill, and I'm very confused, and I get out my dictionary because I don't know the word, and he just starts repeating the phrase louder and louder at me like they joke about the English doing when someone doesn't speak English... it just wasn't a good time for anyone. I did pay, though.
  - eganist 6y ago
    > Iranians will probably think you're dim, or at least sound like it. But we won't tell it to your face. We'll be quite nice to you up front (taarof) and then will backbite like nobody's business. If you want to learn Farsi (or Tajik), please, go to Tajikistan. For your own good, learn it there instead. Or Kabul, for that matter.
    - rvense 6y ago
      Actually, after my month of language lessons in Dushambe I came back to university, and we were a group who had a meeting with the Iranian ambassador here. There was a round of introductions and I said that I had just spent a month in Tajikistan, and the ambassador looked at me and said that it sounded like I had started speaking like those people and I should stop it. In a friendly, "for your own good" sort of tone.
      - eganist 6y ago
        > There was a round of introductions and I said that I had just spent a month in Tajikistan, and the ambassador looked at me and said that it sounded like I had started speaking like those people and I should stop it. In a friendly, "for your own good" sort of tone. And now you've run into another one of our culture's more disgusting trends - bigotry. I'm sorry you had to experience it, and I'm sorry for our people consistently dumping on Tajik and Afghan peoples. I'm embarrassed you had to witness that kind of casual bigotry; there's nothing invalid about any group of people for any reason, including dialect. Second and third generation westernized Persians will do a much better job of accepting you for your effort at learning the language without taking pot shots at how you learned it or from whom you learned it. --- -2 points, yikes. Never change, HN.
kleer001 6y ago
What a wonderfully odd tradition. I wonder if there's a evolutionary psychology take on it. I bet it does some heavy lifting in the culture. Something about the tragedy of commons maybe.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  It's a social equivalent of trust fall. You make yourself vulnerable and support the other person who has made themselves vulnerable.
  - kleer001 6y ago
    Ok, but what does that do structurally to a culture? And how might it have come about?
eganist 6y ago
Persian here. It's one of the most annoying and arguably toxic aspects of our culture. I understand it; I understand the perceived need for it, but I submit that it paradoxically does the exact opposite of what it intends to accomplish ("social equality") because it directly diminishes the value of whoever ultimately "loses" the exchange, oftentimes whoever perceives a greater debt to the other person, which is generally the person of lesser social rank. "Taarof represents the kind essence of Iranian people. In our culture, it can be impolite to express ourselves in very a direct and objective way,” but it in fact demonstrates a kind of disrespect for both the other person's time and validity, and I'd argue that by enforcing systemic dishonesty, it's one of the main culprits of another far darker aspect of Persian culture: Backbiting. https://iranian.com/1998/10/13/people-of-extremes/ https://iranian.com/1998/10/13/people-of-extremes/ --- Do not emulate this. Do not let this aspect of our culture become a part of yours. If you seek to be kind, do so by being kind, not by being nice.
- lttlrck 6y ago
  Thank you, I think this link clarifies the points you are making elsewhere in the thread and I understand your perspective much better now.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is yes and no is no” works better for me.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Analogous things exist in the USA. When Southerners tell someone passing through "Y'all come see us sometime", that doesn't literally mean one is welcome to drop by -- it may well be that they don't even care to see the person ever again. The phrase is often used purely out of politeness.
  - rubidium 6y ago
    By contrast, I’ve meet many southerners for who the hospitality is genuine. Cultures that both value and extend hospitality are the best. Shows a value of humanity above all the other hubbub.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- blodorn 6y ago
  Or trying to shop somewhere where nothing has a fixed price and instead you must haggle.
- corty 6y ago
  As a German, I am amused by USians or British claiming to be direct in social interactions. There are books and courses about how the english sentence "we might have to reconsider" means "no". How you would offer sweets twice, because of course the first answer will be "no" and the other party will want to be "convinced" to say "Yes" on the second round. How "a little help needed" means "big catastrophe, need a lot of help right now". Problem is, you are used to those things and don't see them from inside your culture.
bane 6y ago
There's a similar cultural etiquette I've observed amongst Koreans around paying for the bill after eating a meal out together. It sometimes almost erupts into physical violence as several parties all fight for the bill in order to pay it.
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Yeah, combine with alcohol, I've seen full on fights erupt over this shit. I think the younger generation has a bit less issues with these shenanigans, but I don't hang out without enough "real" (aka not raised in the US/live in korea) Koreans to know for a fact.
  - codezero 6y ago
    This is why, among some of my close friends, we have a game to see who can pay the bill first, without anyone knowing. The surprise comes after the host leaves the paid bill on the table. It’s gone so far as to put a card on file before arriving with no limit, which leads to folks not picking a place to meet in advance, and a lot less predictable locations to meet :)
- bradwood 6y ago
  I think this happens in many cultures, actually. Here's a Father Ted clip that lampoons the Irish version of this same thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3ds-VFKBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3ds-VFKBs
leshokunin 6y ago
It's funny because my Persian friends describe that their relatives expect taarof to be a thing elsewhere. Here's an example: my friend was not in the mood for breakfast. The host took it as a sign that he was taarofing. He insisted that he wasn't. His persistence was seen as a sign that he really wants breakfast. The only way to make it stop while being polite was to take a bite. He was furious!
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Does taarof have anything like an "safe word", that lets you be 100% clear that you mean what you're saying? It sounds from your story that the answer is no, but I wonder if it's different between close friends or family members where there's less pressure to be impeccably polite.
  - riahi 6y ago
    My family always used the phrase “taarof nakon”. However, this then leads to recursive questions of “by agreeing to not taarof, did they just agree out of taarof?” I agree with the other poster who hates it; it’s an obnoxious method of social interaction only enjoyed by people who like drama.
  - kamyarg 6y ago
    as far as I know, there is a non-formal rule of three. If someone is refusing three times with the same "degree" of refusal, then they actually don't want it. There is of course also "Be khoda tarof nemikonam" which is "I swear to god I am not tarofing", after this it is usually acceptable/expected to stop it. Edit: Article also mentions the rule of three > There is an unwritten rule of two or three rounds of offering and refusing in taarof.
lappet 6y ago
Huh a similar behavior exists in India where it is polite to say no the first time. However, it is definitely not part of every single social interaction. I have experienced this a lot when being offered food as a guest - my first few refusals are just ignored, as expected.
- mirajshah 6y ago
  definitely exists in India to a large degree. I personally find it annoying that actual refusals don't carry much weight, because they are most often interpreted as rituals of politeness towards an eventual "yes". sometimes, I actually just want to say "no".
  - lappet 6y ago
    Yes, me too. Saying no to a persistent aunty is one of the hardest things on the planet.
aminozuur 6y ago
In a nutshell, 'taarof' is the social code whereby people fight for the lowest rank, as to show respect for the other person. It affects everything from the seat you take when entering a friends house, to how much you pay (you fight to pay the full bill, while your friend insists on him paying). As a Persian aspie I feel this wastes time, and I prefer the blunt and direct communication style of the Dutch.
- machinelabo 6y ago
  This is also a thing in Indian culture. It is absolutely frustrating.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Really now? Never expected ths 2-3 times nonsense that is expected in taarof (and honestly a waste of time). On the contrary, I've seen most people are wary of putting out such offers of hospitality for the fear that they will actually be taken upon. Besides, which parts of India do you see where people invite strangers to each others' homes?
yeezyszn 6y ago
The key point to 'taroof' is creating a tiny strain of egalitarianism in a deeply fragmented society. The article mentions this a little.. "in a hierarchical society such as Iran, where favours and services can be interpreted according to the stratum of the provider, this behaviour “produces social stability, because when both persons are doing this, they achieve equality”." This is sort of similar to how strict dress codes (black tie etc.), despite being associated with the more pretentious elements of society, are actually deeply egalitarian. By telegraphing exactly what is and is not allowed, variation is diminished and stratification by social class is harder. It obviously has its negative elements (and definitely adds friction to each interaction), but in an increasingly atomized world I find these tiny holdovers of tradition refreshing.
dashtiarian 6y ago
I have lived in Iran for 26 years and have never had an issue with taarof. Old people just know I don't do taarof and they're fine with it. Young people don't do it at all. In fact they're so straight forward an American might find it rude (i.e business emails starts with no smalltalk). The comments about our hospitality and generosity being fake is unfair and unfounded. It's also very self centered of someone to have such claims based solely on their experience and perception. Iran is a big county with different cultures and very different behavior between generations. Do American boomers and GenX behave the same? The comments about our language not being understandable because of taarof is also laughable. I have never done taarof. My friends and family don't do taarof. My driver and food delivery guy get paid over a mobile app. My barber outright asks for tips. People who have chain migrated out of Iran ages ago and higher middle class people are not representative of all Iranians. We are just like you and everybody else.
lqet 6y ago
> "Individuals will seek to raise the other person's status, and lower their own". Isn't this the very definition of politeness, anywhere in the world? I read the beginning of the Wikipedia article on Taarof: > In the rules of hospitality, taarof requires a host to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times (usually three times) before the host and guest finally determine whether the host's offer and the guest's refusal are genuine, or simply a show of politeness. If one is invited to any house for food, then one will be expected to eat seconds and thirds. However, taarof demands that one can't go ahead and help themselves to more food after finishing their first helping. Good manners dictate that one must first pretend to be full, and tell the host how excellent the food was, and that it would be impossible to eat any more. The host is then expected to say one should not do taarof ("taa'rof nakon" - similar to "don't be polite!"), for which the appropriate response would be to say "no" two or three times, then pretend to cave in to the host's insistence and pile on the food To be honest, in this particular situation, I don't see much of a difference (if any) to the area I am coming from (rural southern Germany). In my home area, it would certainly seem very strange to accept an offer to eat at someones house right away, without the usual "no, that's very nice of you, but I don't want to cause you any trouble", etc. dance. Eating for example at a relative's home, you would never ask for a second, and if a second was offered to you, the polite response would be to decline first. The host would then say something like "but really, there is so much left, don't be polite", and this would go on for 1-3 rounds, during which you are more or less expected to offer your second to other guests. Regarding the taxi episode from the article: a few years ago, we were stranded in a snowy village in Austria. It would've been 3 hours by foot to our hotel. A friendly local drove us there. During the last minutes of the drive, I tried to offer this person some money out of gratitude, and it was a very long conversation that circled around my wife giving me discrete hints to offer him some money (but in such a way that he would be able to see that she was giving me hints), him politely hiding that he had noted her hints, me offering him some money, him refusing, me asking if he really didn't want to take any money, we are so grateful, etc. In the end, he didn't take any money, and it was clear he didn't want to. But it took nearly 5 minutes to clear that out.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  Your car anecdote has a big difference, which is that it was a friendly local driving you, not an actual taxi with whom you argued a price before even getting into the car. The difference with taroof is that it goes beyond simple politeness into something that's sometimes even extreme. This anecdote will sound a bit insane out of context, but my dad would sometimes walk up to the door and lock it when guests wanted to leave, begging them to stay and eat more food. You are correct that it is indeed rooted in politeness and hospitality, but I think what sets taroof apart is how much further it can go.
EB-Barrington 6y ago
I spend around half my life in Iran (for the last eight years). My favourite example, to show just how pervasive tarof is, was the occassion I was at the supermarket checkout of a large supermarket chain. The young cashier refused, several times, to accept my money. This, at a very western-style large supermarket chain. Of course, I paid. However, a similar thing happened to a Canadian guest I was once travelling with. At a mini-mart, he tried to purchase a bottle of water but the guy at the counter refused his money. The Canadian took the offer at face value, and left. A few minutes later, a very sheepish guy come down the street asking the Canadian if he wouldn't mind paying. Iranians will understand just how only-in-Iran this situation is. One thing basically every foreigner who has visited Iran will agree on - tarof or not, Iranians are the warmest, most welcoming people on the planet. The truth is that an Iranian will never understand just how much fun it is being a foreigner in Iran, we really are treated well (tarof or not).
- phonon 6y ago
  > The truth is that an Iranian will never understand just how much fun it is being a foreigner in Iran, we really are treated well (tarof or not). https://www.npr.org/2020/11/27/939437147/australian-professor-returns-home-following-2-year-imprisonment-in-iran https://www.npr.org/2020/11/27/939437147/australian-professo...
  - EB-Barrington 6y ago
    This is the typical kind of response I have been receiving for eight years running now, whenever I say anything positive is said about Iran. Many people can't handle the obvious reality that every country has good and bad aspects - even Iran. The fact that you decided to post it, says much more about you, than Iran.
    - phonon 6y ago
      I think you have to be willfully blind to make your parent statement, and ignore the very real risks of being a foreigner in Iran. I'm pretty confident say, Jason Rezaian, would agree...feel free to chat with Behdad Esfahbod too.
plumsempy 6y ago
I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to leave, we ask them to stay for dinner and that is a cue that I am about to inconvenience myself and you have to leave, but more often than not, in situations like this, I ended up having a guest over for hours and then overnight lol. It took me a while to rewire my brain to set the boundaries explicitly, and I have to admit it is still excruciatingly painful for me to reject someone; makes me feel very rude. Nonetheless this approach works great, I dare say a more straightforward culture allows for a better mental state by allowing explicit and clear boundaries for oneself.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  Funny, I wonder how many guests didn't want to stay for dinner but felt it would be rude to say no. I now I would have stayed out of politeness if someone asked me to stay for dinner while I was in their house.
- SirArtVandelay 6y ago
  Seinfeld The Pen: Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM Part2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ
  - admiralspoo 6y ago
    This sort of thing could also make a great "Darmok"-style Star Trek episode for Data
- eganist 6y ago
  > I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. I didn't think someone else would reinforce my points throughout the thread. Thanks for your experience; sorry you had to go through this, and it's great to see someone else embrace a more direct approach.
deleted 6y ago
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pooya13 6y ago
To those who say Iranians are not sincerely hospitable to foreigners, and that they are practicing Tarof. As an Iranian I can assure you this is not the case. Iranians love foreigners, to a fault, to the point that I have felt discriminated against in my own country. Here is a little anecdote. I once saw a baker giving free samples to some tourists. I was there at the bazar to buy some souvenirs, so I decided to also try a sample, only to be told that “they do not give out samples”. Funny thing is, the tourists didn’t even want a sample while I had approached him with the explicit intention to buy (which I decided against after his treatment). But I don’t think he really cared as long as he got to have a positive interaction with the tourists. I suspect a big factor contributing to this culture is how the Iranian public have been isolated, due to both the sanctions from the outside, and the Iranian government from the inside, to the point that foreigners are regarded as exotic people to be treated better than “ordinary” locals.
amerkhalid 6y ago
> Once I paid a Tehran taxi driver 250,000 rials for the ride, a fare we had previously agreed on after a hard-fought negotiation. Oddly, the money was refused. > “Ghabel nadare,” he said smiling, indicating that he wouldn’t accept it. > Scratching my head, I insisted. Again he protested. Giving up, I thanked him in Farsi and left the vehicle with a grin on my face. “All is well,” I thought, incredulously. > “He was taarofing,” my friend Reza later explained. “Of course he expected you to pay. And you should have insisted more. This is confusing, I say that as a Pakistani whose culture also has Taarof. Here is a TED talk[1] by someone with Persian parent and she states in this talk that a shopper, by insisting to pay for an item, insulted the shopkeeper. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Trdafp83U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Trdafp83U

112 points by monort 6y ago

blendo 6y ago

Tarof in an intersection: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvzW1WZsN4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XAvzW1WZsN4

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aminozuur 6y ago
lmfao
kamyarg 6y ago
This might seem like exaggerating to many, but this is more true than not. fun fact: tarof also exists in Turkish culture, they just don't have a specific word for it.
coolgeek 6y ago
OMG, the barbecue on the passenger seat! The attention to detail in this sketch is glorious. And that's coming from a westerner who never heard of tarof before this. So I'm probably missing even more of the detail that actually exists in it.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago

Tarof is so infuriating that, if you are a foreigner who wants to learn Persian, going to Tajikistan instead might be recommended: I don't know if the practice never quite existed there in such an extreme form, or the Soviets stamped it out, but communicating with Tajiks is always so much more straightforward than with Iranians. What always apalls me is foreigners traveling in Iran who rave about how hospitable the local people are, without bothering to learn about tarof. It is likely that the vast majority of invitations to people's homes were not sincere, and by taking locals up on their not-actually-intended offers, those foreign travelers are probably causing great inconvenience (which their hosts will however do their best to mask).

rvense 6y ago
Tajikistan is a very different vibe to Iran, though. There's not much cosmopolitan about Dushambe. Also, if you learn to speak like a Tajik, Iranians will probably think you're dim, or at least sound like it. But yeah, I remember eating out alone in one of my first nights in Iran, so already marked as a weirdo, of course, and the waiter says "Qabel nadare!" when I ask for the bill, and I'm very confused, and I get out my dictionary because I don't know the word, and he just starts repeating the phrase louder and louder at me like they joke about the English doing when someone doesn't speak English... it just wasn't a good time for anyone. I did pay, though.
- eganist 6y ago
  > Iranians will probably think you're dim, or at least sound like it. But we won't tell it to your face. We'll be quite nice to you up front (taarof) and then will backbite like nobody's business. If you want to learn Farsi (or Tajik), please, go to Tajikistan. For your own good, learn it there instead. Or Kabul, for that matter.
  - rvense 6y ago
    Actually, after my month of language lessons in Dushambe I came back to university, and we were a group who had a meeting with the Iranian ambassador here. There was a round of introductions and I said that I had just spent a month in Tajikistan, and the ambassador looked at me and said that it sounded like I had started speaking like those people and I should stop it. In a friendly, "for your own good" sort of tone.
    - eganist 6y ago
      > There was a round of introductions and I said that I had just spent a month in Tajikistan, and the ambassador looked at me and said that it sounded like I had started speaking like those people and I should stop it. In a friendly, "for your own good" sort of tone. And now you've run into another one of our culture's more disgusting trends - bigotry. I'm sorry you had to experience it, and I'm sorry for our people consistently dumping on Tajik and Afghan peoples. I'm embarrassed you had to witness that kind of casual bigotry; there's nothing invalid about any group of people for any reason, including dialect. Second and third generation westernized Persians will do a much better job of accepting you for your effort at learning the language without taking pot shots at how you learned it or from whom you learned it. --- -2 points, yikes. Never change, HN.

kleer001 6y ago

What a wonderfully odd tradition. I wonder if there's a evolutionary psychology take on it. I bet it does some heavy lifting in the culture. Something about the tragedy of commons maybe.

smnrchrds 6y ago
It's a social equivalent of trust fall. You make yourself vulnerable and support the other person who has made themselves vulnerable.
- kleer001 6y ago
  Ok, but what does that do structurally to a culture? And how might it have come about?

eganist 6y ago

Persian here. It's one of the most annoying and arguably toxic aspects of our culture. I understand it; I understand the perceived need for it, but I submit that it paradoxically does the exact opposite of what it intends to accomplish ("social equality") because it directly diminishes the value of whoever ultimately "loses" the exchange, oftentimes whoever perceives a greater debt to the other person, which is generally the person of lesser social rank. "Taarof represents the kind essence of Iranian people. In our culture, it can be impolite to express ourselves in very a direct and objective way,” but it in fact demonstrates a kind of disrespect for both the other person's time and validity, and I'd argue that by enforcing systemic dishonesty, it's one of the main culprits of another far darker aspect of Persian culture: Backbiting. https://iranian.com/1998/10/13/people-of-extremes/ https://iranian.com/1998/10/13/people-of-extremes/ --- Do not emulate this. Do not let this aspect of our culture become a part of yours. If you seek to be kind, do so by being kind, not by being nice.

lttlrck 6y ago
Thank you, I think this link clarifies the points you are making elsewhere in the thread and I understand your perspective much better now.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

> In the world of taarof, politeness holds the place of honour. In its name, people refuse when they want to accept, say what is not meant, express what is not felt, invite when it is not intended, replace bad news with false hope. By doing so, they try to say what they “wished it were” – without ever admitting that it isn’t. Maybe it’s my Americanism, but I’m absolutely happy this is not how it works here. “Yes is yes and no is no” works better for me.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Analogous things exist in the USA. When Southerners tell someone passing through "Y'all come see us sometime", that doesn't literally mean one is welcome to drop by -- it may well be that they don't even care to see the person ever again. The phrase is often used purely out of politeness.
- rubidium 6y ago
  By contrast, I’ve meet many southerners for who the hospitality is genuine. Cultures that both value and extend hospitality are the best. Shows a value of humanity above all the other hubbub.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
blodorn 6y ago
Or trying to shop somewhere where nothing has a fixed price and instead you must haggle.
corty 6y ago
As a German, I am amused by USians or British claiming to be direct in social interactions. There are books and courses about how the english sentence "we might have to reconsider" means "no". How you would offer sweets twice, because of course the first answer will be "no" and the other party will want to be "convinced" to say "Yes" on the second round. How "a little help needed" means "big catastrophe, need a lot of help right now". Problem is, you are used to those things and don't see them from inside your culture.

bane 6y ago

There's a similar cultural etiquette I've observed amongst Koreans around paying for the bill after eating a meal out together. It sometimes almost erupts into physical violence as several parties all fight for the bill in order to pay it.

NikolaeVarius 6y ago
Yeah, combine with alcohol, I've seen full on fights erupt over this shit. I think the younger generation has a bit less issues with these shenanigans, but I don't hang out without enough "real" (aka not raised in the US/live in korea) Koreans to know for a fact.
- codezero 6y ago
  This is why, among some of my close friends, we have a game to see who can pay the bill first, without anyone knowing. The surprise comes after the host leaves the paid bill on the table. It’s gone so far as to put a card on file before arriving with no limit, which leads to folks not picking a place to meet in advance, and a lot less predictable locations to meet :)
bradwood 6y ago
I think this happens in many cultures, actually. Here's a Father Ted clip that lampoons the Irish version of this same thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3ds-VFKBs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk3ds-VFKBs

leshokunin 6y ago

It's funny because my Persian friends describe that their relatives expect taarof to be a thing elsewhere. Here's an example: my friend was not in the mood for breakfast. The host took it as a sign that he was taarofing. He insisted that he wasn't. His persistence was seen as a sign that he really wants breakfast. The only way to make it stop while being polite was to take a bite. He was furious!

DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
Does taarof have anything like an "safe word", that lets you be 100% clear that you mean what you're saying? It sounds from your story that the answer is no, but I wonder if it's different between close friends or family members where there's less pressure to be impeccably polite.
- riahi 6y ago
  My family always used the phrase “taarof nakon”. However, this then leads to recursive questions of “by agreeing to not taarof, did they just agree out of taarof?” I agree with the other poster who hates it; it’s an obnoxious method of social interaction only enjoyed by people who like drama.
- kamyarg 6y ago
  as far as I know, there is a non-formal rule of three. If someone is refusing three times with the same "degree" of refusal, then they actually don't want it. There is of course also "Be khoda tarof nemikonam" which is "I swear to god I am not tarofing", after this it is usually acceptable/expected to stop it. Edit: Article also mentions the rule of three > There is an unwritten rule of two or three rounds of offering and refusing in taarof.

lappet 6y ago

Huh a similar behavior exists in India where it is polite to say no the first time. However, it is definitely not part of every single social interaction. I have experienced this a lot when being offered food as a guest - my first few refusals are just ignored, as expected.

mirajshah 6y ago
definitely exists in India to a large degree. I personally find it annoying that actual refusals don't carry much weight, because they are most often interpreted as rituals of politeness towards an eventual "yes". sometimes, I actually just want to say "no".
- lappet 6y ago
  Yes, me too. Saying no to a persistent aunty is one of the hardest things on the planet.

aminozuur 6y ago

In a nutshell, 'taarof' is the social code whereby people fight for the lowest rank, as to show respect for the other person. It affects everything from the seat you take when entering a friends house, to how much you pay (you fight to pay the full bill, while your friend insists on him paying). As a Persian aspie I feel this wastes time, and I prefer the blunt and direct communication style of the Dutch.

machinelabo 6y ago
This is also a thing in Indian culture. It is absolutely frustrating.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Really now? Never expected ths 2-3 times nonsense that is expected in taarof (and honestly a waste of time). On the contrary, I've seen most people are wary of putting out such offers of hospitality for the fear that they will actually be taken upon. Besides, which parts of India do you see where people invite strangers to each others' homes?

yeezyszn 6y ago

The key point to 'taroof' is creating a tiny strain of egalitarianism in a deeply fragmented society. The article mentions this a little.. "in a hierarchical society such as Iran, where favours and services can be interpreted according to the stratum of the provider, this behaviour “produces social stability, because when both persons are doing this, they achieve equality”." This is sort of similar to how strict dress codes (black tie etc.), despite being associated with the more pretentious elements of society, are actually deeply egalitarian. By telegraphing exactly what is and is not allowed, variation is diminished and stratification by social class is harder. It obviously has its negative elements (and definitely adds friction to each interaction), but in an increasingly atomized world I find these tiny holdovers of tradition refreshing.

dashtiarian 6y ago

I have lived in Iran for 26 years and have never had an issue with taarof. Old people just know I don't do taarof and they're fine with it. Young people don't do it at all. In fact they're so straight forward an American might find it rude (i.e business emails starts with no smalltalk). The comments about our hospitality and generosity being fake is unfair and unfounded. It's also very self centered of someone to have such claims based solely on their experience and perception. Iran is a big county with different cultures and very different behavior between generations. Do American boomers and GenX behave the same? The comments about our language not being understandable because of taarof is also laughable. I have never done taarof. My friends and family don't do taarof. My driver and food delivery guy get paid over a mobile app. My barber outright asks for tips. People who have chain migrated out of Iran ages ago and higher middle class people are not representative of all Iranians. We are just like you and everybody else.

lqet 6y ago

> "Individuals will seek to raise the other person's status, and lower their own". Isn't this the very definition of politeness, anywhere in the world? I read the beginning of the Wikipedia article on Taarof: > In the rules of hospitality, taarof requires a host to offer anything a guest might want, and a guest is equally obliged to refuse it. This ritual may repeat itself several times (usually three times) before the host and guest finally determine whether the host's offer and the guest's refusal are genuine, or simply a show of politeness. If one is invited to any house for food, then one will be expected to eat seconds and thirds. However, taarof demands that one can't go ahead and help themselves to more food after finishing their first helping. Good manners dictate that one must first pretend to be full, and tell the host how excellent the food was, and that it would be impossible to eat any more. The host is then expected to say one should not do taarof ("taa'rof nakon" - similar to "don't be polite!"), for which the appropriate response would be to say "no" two or three times, then pretend to cave in to the host's insistence and pile on the food To be honest, in this particular situation, I don't see much of a difference (if any) to the area I am coming from (rural southern Germany). In my home area, it would certainly seem very strange to accept an offer to eat at someones house right away, without the usual "no, that's very nice of you, but I don't want to cause you any trouble", etc. dance. Eating for example at a relative's home, you would never ask for a second, and if a second was offered to you, the polite response would be to decline first. The host would then say something like "but really, there is so much left, don't be polite", and this would go on for 1-3 rounds, during which you are more or less expected to offer your second to other guests. Regarding the taxi episode from the article: a few years ago, we were stranded in a snowy village in Austria. It would've been 3 hours by foot to our hotel. A friendly local drove us there. During the last minutes of the drive, I tried to offer this person some money out of gratitude, and it was a very long conversation that circled around my wife giving me discrete hints to offer him some money (but in such a way that he would be able to see that she was giving me hints), him politely hiding that he had noted her hints, me offering him some money, him refusing, me asking if he really didn't want to take any money, we are so grateful, etc. In the end, he didn't take any money, and it was clear he didn't want to. But it took nearly 5 minutes to clear that out.

ehsankia 6y ago
Your car anecdote has a big difference, which is that it was a friendly local driving you, not an actual taxi with whom you argued a price before even getting into the car. The difference with taroof is that it goes beyond simple politeness into something that's sometimes even extreme. This anecdote will sound a bit insane out of context, but my dad would sometimes walk up to the door and lock it when guests wanted to leave, begging them to stay and eat more food. You are correct that it is indeed rooted in politeness and hospitality, but I think what sets taroof apart is how much further it can go.

EB-Barrington 6y ago

I spend around half my life in Iran (for the last eight years). My favourite example, to show just how pervasive tarof is, was the occassion I was at the supermarket checkout of a large supermarket chain. The young cashier refused, several times, to accept my money. This, at a very western-style large supermarket chain. Of course, I paid. However, a similar thing happened to a Canadian guest I was once travelling with. At a mini-mart, he tried to purchase a bottle of water but the guy at the counter refused his money. The Canadian took the offer at face value, and left. A few minutes later, a very sheepish guy come down the street asking the Canadian if he wouldn't mind paying. Iranians will understand just how only-in-Iran this situation is. One thing basically every foreigner who has visited Iran will agree on - tarof or not, Iranians are the warmest, most welcoming people on the planet. The truth is that an Iranian will never understand just how much fun it is being a foreigner in Iran, we really are treated well (tarof or not).

phonon 6y ago
> The truth is that an Iranian will never understand just how much fun it is being a foreigner in Iran, we really are treated well (tarof or not). https://www.npr.org/2020/11/27/939437147/australian-professor-returns-home-following-2-year-imprisonment-in-iran https://www.npr.org/2020/11/27/939437147/australian-professo...
- EB-Barrington 6y ago
  This is the typical kind of response I have been receiving for eight years running now, whenever I say anything positive is said about Iran. Many people can't handle the obvious reality that every country has good and bad aspects - even Iran. The fact that you decided to post it, says much more about you, than Iran.
  - phonon 6y ago
    I think you have to be willfully blind to make your parent statement, and ignore the very real risks of being a foreigner in Iran. I'm pretty confident say, Jason Rezaian, would agree...feel free to chat with Behdad Esfahbod too.

plumsempy 6y ago

I am Iranian, and I have to admit, taarof has been an interesting subject in my social interactions. With other Iranians, I have no problem reading and sending social cues; with non-Iranians taarof makes me come off as super nice and kind. But what happened, when people repeatedly took me on on my taarofs, I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. If a guest is staying late we never ask them to leave, we ask them to stay for dinner and that is a cue that I am about to inconvenience myself and you have to leave, but more often than not, in situations like this, I ended up having a guest over for hours and then overnight lol. It took me a while to rewire my brain to set the boundaries explicitly, and I have to admit it is still excruciatingly painful for me to reject someone; makes me feel very rude. Nonetheless this approach works great, I dare say a more straightforward culture allows for a better mental state by allowing explicit and clear boundaries for oneself.

thatguy0900 6y ago
Funny, I wonder how many guests didn't want to stay for dinner but felt it would be rude to say no. I now I would have stayed out of politeness if someone asked me to stay for dinner while I was in their house.
SirArtVandelay 6y ago
Seinfeld The Pen: Part1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3Vm_ksWreM Part2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrvSKIfccwQ
- admiralspoo 6y ago
  This sort of thing could also make a great "Darmok"-style Star Trek episode for Data
eganist 6y ago
> I grew silently very spiteful and distanced myself from them. I didn't think someone else would reinforce my points throughout the thread. Thanks for your experience; sorry you had to go through this, and it's great to see someone else embrace a more direct approach.

deleted 6y ago

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pooya13 6y ago

To those who say Iranians are not sincerely hospitable to foreigners, and that they are practicing Tarof. As an Iranian I can assure you this is not the case. Iranians love foreigners, to a fault, to the point that I have felt discriminated against in my own country. Here is a little anecdote. I once saw a baker giving free samples to some tourists. I was there at the bazar to buy some souvenirs, so I decided to also try a sample, only to be told that “they do not give out samples”. Funny thing is, the tourists didn’t even want a sample while I had approached him with the explicit intention to buy (which I decided against after his treatment). But I don’t think he really cared as long as he got to have a positive interaction with the tourists. I suspect a big factor contributing to this culture is how the Iranian public have been isolated, due to both the sanctions from the outside, and the Iranian government from the inside, to the point that foreigners are regarded as exotic people to be treated better than “ordinary” locals.

amerkhalid 6y ago

> Once I paid a Tehran taxi driver 250,000 rials for the ride, a fare we had previously agreed on after a hard-fought negotiation. Oddly, the money was refused. > “Ghabel nadare,” he said smiling, indicating that he wouldn’t accept it. > Scratching my head, I insisted. Again he protested. Giving up, I thanked him in Farsi and left the vehicle with a grin on my face. “All is well,” I thought, incredulously. > “He was taarofing,” my friend Reza later explained. “Of course he expected you to pay. And you should have insisted more. This is confusing, I say that as a Pakistani whose culture also has Taarof. Here is a TED talk[1] by someone with Persian parent and she states in this talk that a shopper, by insisting to pay for an item, insulted the shopkeeper. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Trdafp83U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Trdafp83U