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They should be worried about anyone tracking them. But it won't matter what most Americans think if there are just two choices and both are designed so that on

by swiley 6y ago

They should be worried about anyone tracking them. But it won't matter what most Americans think if there are just two choices and both are designed so that only a few can modify the OS. There's also the pinephone of course, but "Most Americans" object to the pinephone so severely that they'll offer to buy you an iphone if you switch to one.

timbit42 6y ago
So then I could sell the iPhone and buy more PinePhones?
kitotik 6y ago
Pinephone doesn’t solve the carrier problem.
- fsflover 6y ago
  Purism does: https://puri.sm/products/librem-awesim/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-awesim/.
  - megous 6y ago
    You do one self-identifying thing (from the PoV of the mobile network operator) on your phone over network and your IMEI is forever tainted with your identity from then on. (Say someone or some corp sends you a two-factor SMS that includes some identifying data) Purism doesn't have this solved either. And from the PoV of governement surveillance, lol. Just forget using a PSTN.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      It's impossible to solve all problem at once. You solve them one by one. Also security is not a boolean (secure or not secure): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-in-depth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-in-depth.
      - megous 6y ago
        Yes, you're stating the obvious, but this service by Purism solves nothing if you think you're hiding from the mobile network operator this way, without taking other quite extreme measures on top. And whether you've revealed your identity or not is in fact binary. This issue is not about security, but privacy.
        fsflover 6y ago
        > whether you've revealed your identity or not is in fact binary No, it's not. It is equal to the price/time to find it out. Even though you are right that Purism does not protect from that fully, they do make it harder/more expensive.
  - squarefoot 6y ago
    No cellphone can eliminate tracking by association. For years you go to work driving the same roads or taking the same bus along with people with their cellphones, associating with the same towers and hotspots and stopping by at the same shop to buy a newspaper. Then one day you buy a PinePhone or a Purism phone with a new SIM thinking they'll lose all your tracks. Well, no. If you bring your phone along for enough time, it will do the same things the former one did, so that a simple query asking for new phone numbers producing the same metadata will return your new number along with some new others, which can be easily filtered away by conditioning the search to those associating for example with a tower where you usually spend holidays, or almost identical tower connections with a phone close to yours (wife, for example). Cellphones such as the PinePhone or the Librem aren't intended to hide that you are you; that will be discovered in hours anyway and it's not even worth attempting; they're rather intended as a way to avoid direct data access and surveillance by corporations and governments. That is, they will immediately know it's you and where you are with coarse accuracy, but what you are up to is another story: they need to access the data directly by sneaking malicious software into your phone, which its Open Source nature will made extremely difficult to achieve.
maxerickson 6y ago
Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. In this case, something closer to what you mean would probably make more sense than an exaggeration. My expectation is that most Americans would have little interest in a detailed discussion of the Pinephone (so they would take a pass based on a brief description) and not care if you had one and thought it was great.
- actuator 6y ago
  > Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. Only that they do have the majority market share at 60% https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/united... Statcounter uses active devices, so it seems like a much better indicator of what people are actually using, assuming they are able to get a good sample set.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. They do according to some sources [0]. By all accounts they have the majority when you breakdown phones by brand (as compared to platform). By every account they’re nearing 50% in the US. Also, among the US youth market they have close to 90% [1] so fortunately the general share will keep rising. (I say fortunately because I look forward to the US being able to regulate their policies.) [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... [1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ownership-reaches-all-time-high-continues-to-grow https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ow...
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Majority won't differ based on how you break it down (unless a brand has multiple platforms, which isn't particularly the case). Largest market share would differ for brands and platforms though. My broader point, that the exaggeration makes it difficult to understand what they are getting at, survives quibbling about what the words mean, and probably if some platform that isn't Apple has a 40% market share (Rather than just a brand). 40% is a big chunk when the starting line is that everyone will react severely.
ouid 6y ago
Why do you believe the last thing you said?
- swiley 6y ago
  Because I've had multiple friends offer to buy me an iPhone after it died and I had to put the sim card in the Pinephone.

by swiley 6y ago

timbit42 6y ago

So then I could sell the iPhone and buy more PinePhones?

kitotik 6y ago

Pinephone doesn’t solve the carrier problem.

fsflover 6y ago
Purism does: https://puri.sm/products/librem-awesim/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-awesim/.
- megous 6y ago
  You do one self-identifying thing (from the PoV of the mobile network operator) on your phone over network and your IMEI is forever tainted with your identity from then on. (Say someone or some corp sends you a two-factor SMS that includes some identifying data) Purism doesn't have this solved either. And from the PoV of governement surveillance, lol. Just forget using a PSTN.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    It's impossible to solve all problem at once. You solve them one by one. Also security is not a boolean (secure or not secure): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-in-depth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-in-depth.
    - megous 6y ago
      Yes, you're stating the obvious, but this service by Purism solves nothing if you think you're hiding from the mobile network operator this way, without taking other quite extreme measures on top. And whether you've revealed your identity or not is in fact binary. This issue is not about security, but privacy.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        > whether you've revealed your identity or not is in fact binary No, it's not. It is equal to the price/time to find it out. Even though you are right that Purism does not protect from that fully, they do make it harder/more expensive.
- squarefoot 6y ago
  No cellphone can eliminate tracking by association. For years you go to work driving the same roads or taking the same bus along with people with their cellphones, associating with the same towers and hotspots and stopping by at the same shop to buy a newspaper. Then one day you buy a PinePhone or a Purism phone with a new SIM thinking they'll lose all your tracks. Well, no. If you bring your phone along for enough time, it will do the same things the former one did, so that a simple query asking for new phone numbers producing the same metadata will return your new number along with some new others, which can be easily filtered away by conditioning the search to those associating for example with a tower where you usually spend holidays, or almost identical tower connections with a phone close to yours (wife, for example). Cellphones such as the PinePhone or the Librem aren't intended to hide that you are you; that will be discovered in hours anyway and it's not even worth attempting; they're rather intended as a way to avoid direct data access and surveillance by corporations and governments. That is, they will immediately know it's you and where you are with coarse accuracy, but what you are up to is another story: they need to access the data directly by sneaking malicious software into your phone, which its Open Source nature will made extremely difficult to achieve.

maxerickson 6y ago

Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. In this case, something closer to what you mean would probably make more sense than an exaggeration. My expectation is that most Americans would have little interest in a detailed discussion of the Pinephone (so they would take a pass based on a brief description) and not care if you had one and thought it was great.

actuator 6y ago
> Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. Only that they do have the majority market share at 60% https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/united-states-of-america https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/united... Statcounter uses active devices, so it seems like a much better indicator of what people are actually using, assuming they are able to get a good sample set.
wayneftw 6y ago
> Apple doesn't have a majority market share in the US. They do according to some sources [0]. By all accounts they have the majority when you breakdown phones by brand (as compared to platform). By every account they’re nearing 50% in the US. Also, among the US youth market they have close to 90% [1] so fortunately the general share will keep rising. (I say fortunately because I look forward to the US being able to regulate their policies.) [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... [1] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ownership-reaches-all-time-high-continues-to-grow https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/06/us-teen-iphone-ow...
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Majority won't differ based on how you break it down (unless a brand has multiple platforms, which isn't particularly the case). Largest market share would differ for brands and platforms though. My broader point, that the exaggeration makes it difficult to understand what they are getting at, survives quibbling about what the words mean, and probably if some platform that isn't Apple has a 40% market share (Rather than just a brand). 40% is a big chunk when the starting line is that everyone will react severely.

ouid 6y ago

Why do you believe the last thing you said?

swiley 6y ago
Because I've had multiple friends offer to buy me an iPhone after it died and I had to put the sim card in the Pinephone.