3 ms·

Dulce et decorum est, eh? That old Lie.

blub 6y ago
Being born somewhere and being a citizen gives you certain rights but also responsibilities. Not being loyal to your country means that you're not taking care of your responsibilities, so it would be fair that you should not enjoy the rights of citizenship. Those that dislike patriotism so much should provide the ultimate proof of their beliefs and renounce their citizenship. They shall surely be celebrated by all countries for transcending nationality and patriotism, right until they want to cross a border or demand something when they'll be told to GTFO back to where they came from.
- inopinatus 6y ago
  Ugh. That “renounce your citizenship then” jibe speaks volumes about the revulsion felt by authoritarians for nonconformists. It is bigotry 101, and repeating it labels you personally. Fortunately, I’m perfectly capable of discharging my civic responsibilities without having to believe in some animistic delusion, any more than I need a church to supply a moral compass. My loyalty belongs to people, not places, and to cultures, not scriptures.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Your loyalty belongs to people? No doubt that's why you called them "revisionist shitbirds" a few posts upthread.
    - inopinatus 6y ago
      I merely leave that as a tripwire for anyone willing to reveal their hidden inner fascist.
  - blub 6y ago
    In the end nations are the quintessential form of human political organization and they rest upon the ideas of shared history, culture and patriotism. Your attempts at equating patriotism with chauvinism and aggressive nationalism don't provoke revulsion, they just cause confusion as to what could move you to assert such absurdities. Words have clear meanings. You could save everyone some time by being precise instead of launching into pointless crusades.
    - inopinatus 6y ago
      > nations are the quintessential form of human political organization That is false, hubristic, tautological, and lacking in either foresight or historical perspective. Nations in their current mode of the nation-state have barely existed for a couple of centuries. Like every other construct of mankind, they will be replaced. > they rest upon the ideas of shared history, culture and patriotism They rest on borders demarcated by political and ethnic violence, and institutions whose primary functions are to perpetuate their own existence, maintain a ruling class, and quell the populace. > You could save everyone some time by being precise instead of launching into pointless crusades You don't have to respond, but I don't take instructions to shut up from someone perpetuating abusive dogma.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  No thanks I will continue to reap the rewards of pure chance and continue to trigger those such as yourself.
  - blub 6y ago
    This is a bit odd that you're jumping into a discussion between two other people and you're trying to make it about yourself. But please do carry on reaping and continuing things. :)
    - the_only_law 6y ago
      > Those that dislike patriotism so much should provide the ultimate proof of their beliefs and renounce their citizenship. It’s quite clear you are not referring to single individual here but instead calling out a group and [sarcastically] suggesting they take some action. If including myself in a mentioned group is “making it about myself” and odd, I’m fine with that.
      - blub 6y ago
        Having positive feelings towards one's country is a pretty normal, pretty emotionally healthy thing. Their absence indicates some internal or external conflict or trauma. Individuals which are experiencing these conflicts should not condemn patriotism in sweeping generalizations. Some countries are quite fine, in spite of a chequered past and being proud of one's country can be a nice feeling.
        inopinatus 6y ago
        > Having positive feelings towards one's country is a pretty normal, pretty emotionally healthy thing. Their absence indicates some internal or external conflict or trauma. That is pub psychology at its most patronising, its most flawed, and its most self-serving. For those of us not so indoctrinated, expressing feelings for any inanimate or noncorporeal object sounds pathological and fetishistic. Indoctrinating children into the same through repetition of a daily mantra is indistinguishable from religion. If nations were an object capable of returning your affection, the routine exploitation, injustice, violence, mismanagement and desecration of trust would make it a situation to be urgently extracted from. Those who haven't experienced any of those things first-hand, including from the systems and institutions of nations that make the cosmically ironic claim to be the "good guys", are astonishingly, overwhelmingly, revoltingly privileged - and only a small fraction of humanity. To sum up: patriotism is an abusive relationship with a memetic virus. Only a monster would promulgate it.

blub 6y ago

Being born somewhere and being a citizen gives you certain rights but also responsibilities. Not being loyal to your country means that you're not taking care of your responsibilities, so it would be fair that you should not enjoy the rights of citizenship. Those that dislike patriotism so much should provide the ultimate proof of their beliefs and renounce their citizenship. They shall surely be celebrated by all countries for transcending nationality and patriotism, right until they want to cross a border or demand something when they'll be told to GTFO back to where they came from.

inopinatus 6y ago
Ugh. That “renounce your citizenship then” jibe speaks volumes about the revulsion felt by authoritarians for nonconformists. It is bigotry 101, and repeating it labels you personally. Fortunately, I’m perfectly capable of discharging my civic responsibilities without having to believe in some animistic delusion, any more than I need a church to supply a moral compass. My loyalty belongs to people, not places, and to cultures, not scriptures.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Your loyalty belongs to people? No doubt that's why you called them "revisionist shitbirds" a few posts upthread.
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    I merely leave that as a tripwire for anyone willing to reveal their hidden inner fascist.
- blub 6y ago
  In the end nations are the quintessential form of human political organization and they rest upon the ideas of shared history, culture and patriotism. Your attempts at equating patriotism with chauvinism and aggressive nationalism don't provoke revulsion, they just cause confusion as to what could move you to assert such absurdities. Words have clear meanings. You could save everyone some time by being precise instead of launching into pointless crusades.
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    > nations are the quintessential form of human political organization That is false, hubristic, tautological, and lacking in either foresight or historical perspective. Nations in their current mode of the nation-state have barely existed for a couple of centuries. Like every other construct of mankind, they will be replaced. > they rest upon the ideas of shared history, culture and patriotism They rest on borders demarcated by political and ethnic violence, and institutions whose primary functions are to perpetuate their own existence, maintain a ruling class, and quell the populace. > You could save everyone some time by being precise instead of launching into pointless crusades You don't have to respond, but I don't take instructions to shut up from someone perpetuating abusive dogma.
the_only_law 6y ago
No thanks I will continue to reap the rewards of pure chance and continue to trigger those such as yourself.
- blub 6y ago
  This is a bit odd that you're jumping into a discussion between two other people and you're trying to make it about yourself. But please do carry on reaping and continuing things. :)
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    > Those that dislike patriotism so much should provide the ultimate proof of their beliefs and renounce their citizenship. It’s quite clear you are not referring to single individual here but instead calling out a group and [sarcastically] suggesting they take some action. If including myself in a mentioned group is “making it about myself” and odd, I’m fine with that.
    - blub 6y ago
      Having positive feelings towards one's country is a pretty normal, pretty emotionally healthy thing. Their absence indicates some internal or external conflict or trauma. Individuals which are experiencing these conflicts should not condemn patriotism in sweeping generalizations. Some countries are quite fine, in spite of a chequered past and being proud of one's country can be a nice feeling.
      - inopinatus 6y ago
        > Having positive feelings towards one's country is a pretty normal, pretty emotionally healthy thing. Their absence indicates some internal or external conflict or trauma. That is pub psychology at its most patronising, its most flawed, and its most self-serving. For those of us not so indoctrinated, expressing feelings for any inanimate or noncorporeal object sounds pathological and fetishistic. Indoctrinating children into the same through repetition of a daily mantra is indistinguishable from religion. If nations were an object capable of returning your affection, the routine exploitation, injustice, violence, mismanagement and desecration of trust would make it a situation to be urgently extracted from. Those who haven't experienced any of those things first-hand, including from the systems and institutions of nations that make the cosmically ironic claim to be the "good guys", are astonishingly, overwhelmingly, revoltingly privileged - and only a small fraction of humanity. To sum up: patriotism is an abusive relationship with a memetic virus. Only a monster would promulgate it.