5 ms·

> or daily pledging your unconditional allegiance to a nation Wut, that's some serious 1984 shit, where is this common?

ceilingcorner 6y ago
Most schoolchildren do the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, but in my experience, the only people who think it's some sort of dystopian practice are foreigners whose primary knowledge of America comes from watching Netflix. For actual Americans, it's a mildly respectful gesture that simply implies patriotism...and it's not a particularly huge deal.
- elsjaako 6y ago
  As someone who had never heard of the practice before moving to the US as a teen, it seemed pretty culty to me. I understand most Americans aren't that bothered, but that makes it even more creepy to us foreigners. I'm sure North Koreans are used to the Kims' pictures in every room, but that doesn't make it less weird from an outsiders perspective.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    Comparing the Pledge of Allegiance to North Korean indoctrination is exactly the sort of absurd nonsense that I'm talking about. It's a basic tradition that helps instill patriotism, which from a purely practical point of view, is almost a political necessity in a country as diverse as America. Criticizing one's own country, which is probably one of the most American things one can do, is absolutely not possible in North Korea. I don't want to assume the country that you're from, but I'll say this: Europeans often have this constant attitude that they're the forefront of civilization and that anyone who doesn't match their highly subjective standards is ethically "behind." It's nauseating and frankly just the new flavor of Eurocentric imperialism.
    - Gibbon1 6y ago
      > It's a basic tradition that helps instill patriotism AKA culty and weird.
      - ceilingcorner 6y ago
        This kind of snarky, low effort comment belongs on Reddit, not HN.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        I don't feel like I need any more words to express my opinion. It's exactly like religion, if you weren't raised in it, you correctly see it at culty and weird.
        unishark 6y ago
        Religion would seem culty since a cult is literally a religion.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        American brand patriotism with it's strong demands of unthinking obedience has a lot of the same qualities as a religion.
    - inopinatus 6y ago
      Joe McCarthy says Hi. Did you forget about the horrifying legacy of both literal and figurative witch trials? How about the US only very recently abandoning the idea that one person could own another? The idea that patriotism is a necessity makes me nauseous, particularly given the ghastly scars of full-on repression and brutality the US wears on its face for anyone with the temerity to speak the wrong opinion. Frankly I struggle to comprehend any other interpretation of history. Unless, of course, one is some kind of revisionist shitbird with blind spots up the wazoo. The infantile whinge about “Eurocentrism” is characteristic of the kind of petty-minded, reflexive, and ultimately inaccurate dismissal of outsiders I’ve come to expect from authoritarian demagogues and the wannabe bullies that defend them. All of which is to say, the fact that in the US, it’s possible to criticise the government, occurs despite the ludicrous brainwash theatrics, not because of them; and until very recently, only for a few.
vkou 6y ago
Every schoolchild in the United States starting at the age of ~six is expected (but not legally required) to participate in a daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. "I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." There are a number of obvious questions about the ethics of indoctrinating children with this sort of thing, but that is left as an exercise for the reader.
- unishark 6y ago
  I think there's a few states where it is not required. And the state requirements only apply to public schools so who knows what all the private and parochial schools are doing.
  - vkou 6y ago
    I believe that the courts have ruled that it's not required anywhere. My point about social pressures still stands. The stuck-out nail gets hammered down.
    - unishark 6y ago
      I meant required of the school. I think you're vastly overstating the social pressure. It's nothing compared to adolescent pressure to wear the right clothes and ingest the right chemicals. Among adults, the far right wingers get outraged by those who refuse while the far left wingers get outraged by the existence of the pledge. The 70 percent in the middle care far less.
- skrebbel 6y ago
  Wow I did not know that. Scary shit!

Most schoolchildren do the Pledge of Allegiance every morning, but in my experience, the only people who think it's some sort of dystopian practice are foreigners whose primary knowledge of America comes from watching Netflix. For actual Americans, it's a mildly respectful gesture that simply implies patriotism...and it's not a particularly huge deal.

elsjaako 6y ago
As someone who had never heard of the practice before moving to the US as a teen, it seemed pretty culty to me. I understand most Americans aren't that bothered, but that makes it even more creepy to us foreigners. I'm sure North Koreans are used to the Kims' pictures in every room, but that doesn't make it less weird from an outsiders perspective.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  Comparing the Pledge of Allegiance to North Korean indoctrination is exactly the sort of absurd nonsense that I'm talking about. It's a basic tradition that helps instill patriotism, which from a purely practical point of view, is almost a political necessity in a country as diverse as America. Criticizing one's own country, which is probably one of the most American things one can do, is absolutely not possible in North Korea. I don't want to assume the country that you're from, but I'll say this: Europeans often have this constant attitude that they're the forefront of civilization and that anyone who doesn't match their highly subjective standards is ethically "behind." It's nauseating and frankly just the new flavor of Eurocentric imperialism.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    > It's a basic tradition that helps instill patriotism AKA culty and weird.
    - ceilingcorner 6y ago
      This kind of snarky, low effort comment belongs on Reddit, not HN.
      - Gibbon1 6y ago
        I don't feel like I need any more words to express my opinion. It's exactly like religion, if you weren't raised in it, you correctly see it at culty and weird.
        unishark 6y ago
        Religion would seem culty since a cult is literally a religion.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        American brand patriotism with it's strong demands of unthinking obedience has a lot of the same qualities as a religion.
  - inopinatus 6y ago
    Joe McCarthy says Hi. Did you forget about the horrifying legacy of both literal and figurative witch trials? How about the US only very recently abandoning the idea that one person could own another? The idea that patriotism is a necessity makes me nauseous, particularly given the ghastly scars of full-on repression and brutality the US wears on its face for anyone with the temerity to speak the wrong opinion. Frankly I struggle to comprehend any other interpretation of history. Unless, of course, one is some kind of revisionist shitbird with blind spots up the wazoo. The infantile whinge about “Eurocentrism” is characteristic of the kind of petty-minded, reflexive, and ultimately inaccurate dismissal of outsiders I’ve come to expect from authoritarian demagogues and the wannabe bullies that defend them. All of which is to say, the fact that in the US, it’s possible to criticise the government, occurs despite the ludicrous brainwash theatrics, not because of them; and until very recently, only for a few.

vkou 6y ago

Every schoolchild in the United States starting at the age of ~six is expected (but not legally required) to participate in a daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. "I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." There are a number of obvious questions about the ethics of indoctrinating children with this sort of thing, but that is left as an exercise for the reader.

unishark 6y ago
I think there's a few states where it is not required. And the state requirements only apply to public schools so who knows what all the private and parochial schools are doing.
- vkou 6y ago
  I believe that the courts have ruled that it's not required anywhere. My point about social pressures still stands. The stuck-out nail gets hammered down.
  - unishark 6y ago
    I meant required of the school. I think you're vastly overstating the social pressure. It's nothing compared to adolescent pressure to wear the right clothes and ingest the right chemicals. Among adults, the far right wingers get outraged by those who refuse while the far left wingers get outraged by the existence of the pledge. The 70 percent in the middle care far less.
skrebbel 6y ago
Wow I did not know that. Scary shit!