12 ms·
McKinsey Proposed Paying Pharmacy Companies Rebates for OxyContin Overdoses
- a3n 6y agoWe are all merely resources to corporations, politicians and law enforcement.
- ashneo76 6y agoYup. So much this. If everyone can realize this. We all are nothing but resources for companies, politicians and law enforcement is there to help the prior two. It really is us the people that they are afraid of.
- AmericanChopper 6y agoIf you’re cynical enough, you could easily argue that every relationship that any person has is based on nothing more than resources. Somebody claims to love their wife? Unlikely. They’re just looking for some love and fulfilment resource. Do you really like your friends? Or do you just like the way friendship makes you feel?
- curiousllama 6y agoOnly if you define resource so broadly as to constitute anything, at which point the statement becomes “all relationships are based on things” ... which, like, yes of course
- AmericanChopper 6y agoWhether resources are material or not isn’t relevant. The attention, care, kindness, compassion that a person has to offer others is a resource (and a finite one at that). The basis of the claim is that these entities are viewing other people as nothing more than what those people have to offer them. If you prescribe to the doctrine of psychological egoism, then that is how every single person views every single relationship they have (intentionally or otherwise). I would say that’s a rather cynical way to view the world (others would say it’s just a factual perspective). But if you view this scenario from that perspective, there’s no logical reason that you shouldn’t also view the relationships you have with your own spouse/parents/children/friends... the same way.
- lostcolony 6y agoSure there is; even with so reductionist a view, those relationships can be healthy because they are between equals, and can be done with reciprocity. With a corporation or politician? Not so much.
- AmericanChopper 6y agoThe views in my comments are no more reductionist than the parent comment I was replying to. I would also suggest that rejecting psychological egoism as reductionist is a rather blatant anti-science point of view. However whether reciprocity was involved doesn’t at all change the existence of a self-interested motive. It’s simply irrelevant. Furthermore, in this case there was reciprocity. In this instance the big corporate interests were selling a product for which doctors had a demand to treat their patients. You’re welcome to have an opinion about the integrity and value of that reciprocity, but that goes for anybody in regards to any relationship. A cynical person could come to that conclusion about any relationship, and offer you a justification for it supported entirely by a leading thesis from the field of ethics.
- nobody9999 6y ago>But if you view this scenario from that perspective, there’s no logical reason that you shouldn’t also view the relationships you have with your own spouse/parents/children/friends... the same way. Absolutely. And while such attitudes are not incredibly widespread, there are enough folks who do so that we have a name for exhibiting such behavior. We call it Narcissistic Personality Disorder[0]. Which is a terrible thing to do of course, as it stigmatizes a whole group of people that just want to live their lives and use the the objects in their environment to their advantage. What's bad with that? [0] https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder.htm https://www.helpguide.org/articles/mental-disorders/narcissi...
- AmericanChopper 6y agoYour wrong about this. The actual term for this (as I mentioned above) is psychological egoism. This topic has been publicly debated for a very long time. You can look at the history of the debate between egoism and utilitarianism (and the further debate about whether there’s a meaningful difference between those two ideas) if you want to learn about it. People have debated for a very long time whether a person who derives satisfaction from benefitting others is truely motivated by the benefit of others, or simply the benefit of themselves by way of that satisfaction. A narcissist is a completely different thing. They would not derive satisfaction from benefitting others, for reasons such as their narcissistic lack of empathy.
- sksnskkcahan 6y agoYou’re right, and I think this is a good point against the root comment. Nobody can argue against the claim that we are all just resources to politicians, corporations, and law enforcement because it is vacuously true. It’s like saying we are all just atoms. It doesn’t tell us whether many or most in those industries are good people who are in it for the right reasons. And of course, this story about a particular repugnant act can’t prove such a blanket statement.
- johnisgood 6y agoMaybe we are doing what we are doing to either to: "relieve personal distress (e.g. discomfort from the situation), avoid self-punishment (e.g. feelings of guilt), avoid social-punishment (e.g. looking bad to others), obtain rewards from self or others (e.g. praise, pride), gain a mood-enhancing experience (e.g. feel glad someone was helped)."[1] [1] https://iep.utm.edu/psychego/ https://iep.utm.edu/psychego/
- ashtonkem 6y agoAnyone who says that seriously is someone to be steered way the hell away from, that’s way too sociopathic for my comfort.
- AmericanChopper 6y agoI would suggest that projecting evil motives onto others implies a far greater sociopathic tendency. Keep in mind that all of the worst things we’ve managed to accomplish as a species tended to start with dehumanization as the first enabling step. I’d also suggest that this comment would also necessarily include dismissing just about every psychologist, philosopher or ethicist who studies the nature of self-interested motives as being a sociopath as well. If you really wanted to be cynical however, I’d suggest you start by asking who’s benefitting from us having this conversation. I’d say it’s the regulators, and to a greater extent the executives who have been in charge of those regulators, who are the people statutorily responsible for these failures. I can’t imagine how happy they’d be with us debating how culpable big pharma and their management consultants are for it.
- jrumbut 6y agoThere's a difference between getting something out of a relationship, or even having the relationship contingent on that benefit, and doing absolutely everything short of what will land you in prison to get the maximum benefit for the minimal cost. My favorite local breakfast place only serves me because I pay, but I forgot my wallet one time and they just waived the charge. There's a spectrum between altruism and exploitation, and it's important we put pressure on large organizations to stay away from the exploitation end because it's clear some won't do it on their own.
- sudosysgen 6y agoYou've redefined resource to be literally anything, in an attempt of coming to a materialist worldview. There's three important attributes of resources. Firstly, resources of a same type, defined by their use, are fungible. Secondly, resources are a means to an end. Lastly, resources are valuable either because of their uses or because they can be exchanged. Now, love, fulfillment, and the feeling of friendship realize neither of the three properties. Neither does a wife or a friend. Because of that, I don't think one can say that every relationship a person has is based on nothing more than resources. Personal relationships are categorically different. Additionally, unlike material relationships, personal relationships are most healthy and effective when they are between equals.
- AmericanChopper 6y agoThere are many abstract concepts included in the definition of the word resources. You’re trying to argue that it means computable wealth and absolutely nothing else. Which is very obviously ridiculous, and it’s hard to see this comment as anything other than an attempt to start some pointless semantic debate.
- sudosysgen 6y agoI'm certainly not saying that it is equivalent to comptable wealth. Political power fits all three criteria and is not comptable wealth, so does any other kind of resource one could think of.
- falcolas 6y agoWe even have a special designation that identifies our role in all this: Consumer
- sjtindell 6y agoAs I’ve moved up the ladder I’ve even found myself referring to other engineers as resources. Trying to break the habit.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- disown 6y agoThey don't call it the human resources department for no reason... If you look at cities/modern civilization, it's really no different from an industrial farm. People who run industrial farms are focused on the production of the livestock - aka the productive value of each head of cattle, each chicken, etc. People who run cities are focused on the production of every head of human. Notice the uptick in "How do I get more productive", "I've had a productive day today", etc? Doesn't it seem like it's all about productivity? Are you meeting your potential - have you been as productive as you could be today?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- xoxoy 6y agoI don’t really understand the rebate strategy here. They told Purdue to literally go to CVS and tell them “we are going to pay you a bonus for every overdose you cause?” How does CVS interplay with the doctors who are doing the actual prescribing? I guess I don’t understand how a rebate change anything at CVS. Aren’t they just filling the prescription?
- MattGaiser 6y agoI am guessing that it was meant as legal/political/social cover? Hazard pay for the potential litigation they might face? CVS put some limits on opioid prescriptions: https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/21/cvs-opioid-prescription-limits/ https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/21/cvs-opioid-prescription-...
- xoxoy 6y agoisn’t CVS just doing whatever the doctor is prescribing without any judgement? i don’t see how CVS would be liable here unless they failed to verify the authenticity of a prescription or something on purpose.
- bhickey 6y agoThe pharmacist might be otherwise discouraged from keeping oxy in stock.
- MattGaiser 6y agoIt doesn't prevent them from being sued and incurring costs as a result or having to spend resources complying with investigations.
- xoxoy 6y agook, so a rebate is less “here’s a reward for OD’ing people” and more “we’ll soften the blow if you continue filling Oxy with no judgment if someone ends up dying” I guess
- jakelazaroff 6y agoIt's absolutely infuriating that no one is being prosecuted over this. Meanwhile, Kalief Browder was jailed without trial for three years — for allegedly stealing a backpack. We truly do have two justice systems.
- leetrout 6y agoThis is why people say we have a legal system not a justice system.
- zug_zug 6y agoI think it's pretty easy to act outraged and say "somebody should be punished," and most people I know, and most politicians, do. As for actually doing research, thinking about it, and bothering up to come up with a proposal... I guess nobody actually cares THAT much.
- jakelazaroff 6y agoYou say "doing research, thinking about it, and bothering to come up with a proposal" as if the only obstacle is that no one has figured out how to bring these people to justice. That's not what's happening here. These are people who use their immense power and resources to warp our bureaucracy to protect and enrich themselves. They don't face real consequences because the system is designed to shield them from accountability.
- zug_zug 6y ago>>> They don't face real consequences Who's they? It's so easy to hand-wave about "them" and "the system," but I don't see how you're helping people unless you're helping to make concrete proposals or helping to identify specific policies by specific people that need to be punished and/or prevented in the future.
- pksebben 6y agothe board and corporate governance of companies should be held criminally liable for actions they oversee. You can get locked up for life under the kingpin act. Let's make that applicable here.
- ashtonkem 6y agoI feel like this isn’t the first time McKinsey has been caught encouraging or enabling some pretty horrific stuff. It’s probably time they get some prosecutorial attention.
- boringg 6y agoSeriously, they have taken a real nose dive. I wonder if they still have MBAs competing for their jobs or if this has taken out the top level talent (and shipped it over to SV)
- smabie 6y agoTop level talent never joined consulting in the first place. Wall St is considered by most a more desirable and prestigious career path. It's also usually more lucrative. Traders and investment bankers especially consider consultants to be major losers (including me).
- sb057 6y agoAnother gem: >Those records show that McKinsey was helping Purdue find a way “to counter the emotional messages from mothers with teenagers that overdosed” from OxyContin.
- spanktheuser 6y agoMoral absolutism has been out of vogue for 50 years, but I encourage everyone to give it a spin. It’s provides such wonderful moral clarity and said clarity is surprisingly effective at rooting out the sort of poisonous people who ruin friendships, companies and societies. I’ve dealt with numerous McKinsey consultants over a 30 year career. I’ve collected enough data points to feel safe in concluding the following: • McKinsey is a vile organization without any redemption. • That they are not condemned as such speak volumes about both our societies’ moral failings and more broadly, our individual failure to care about the people McKinsey helped murder. • That last point bears repeating: McKinsey will happily and knowingly murder people for money. That only seems like a preposterous or exaggerated statement because we are not accustomed to hearing someone be impolite to evil people in a position to pay us well. • People who work for McKinsey are sociopaths. Not occasionally. Not sometimes. In all cases. The only exception being people recruited directly from college who quit that firm within a few years of joining. • Many here are in a position to punish McKinsey alumni. If you are asked to interview someone with McKinsey on their resume, I believe you should absolutely state that they performed terribly regardless of what occurred. I personally find it rewarding to repoer that their interview behavior during the interview seemed erratic, to the extent that I questioned their sobriety. If your sense of humor is as dark as mine I highly suggest this approach. If you have hire / fire authority, it’s much simpler. Don’t hire, do fire. • Organizations like McKinsey exist because we collectively accept their behavior. When we stop doing that, McKinsey will stop addicting broken, damaged and hurting people to opiates. Stopping McKinsey is up to us. I make an argument from the left. But I think there are also compelling objections to these parasites that can be made from a position far to the right. This doesn’t and shouldn’t be a left/right thing. Because it is absolutely a parasites vs producers thing. And everyone, regardless of politics, will be healthier freed of this particular tapeworm.
- CGamesPlay 6y ago> I encourage everyone to give [Moral absolutism] a spin > state that they performed terribly regardless of what occurred... [report] that their interview behavior during the interview seemed erratic, to the extent that I questioned their sobriety Quite some cognitive dissonance you're holding onto there!
- 6y ago
- guptaneil 6y ago> On Tuesday, Purdue pleaded guilty to criminal charges, including defrauding federal health agencies and paying illegal kickbacks to doctors. The company also faces roughly $8.3 billion in penalties. As part of the settlement, members of the Sackler family will pay $225 million in civil penalties. They made over $12 billion in profit as of last year[0], so they still came out ahead... 0: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2019/10/04/the-sacklers-made-12-to-13-billion-in-profit-from-oxycontin-maker-purdue-pharma-new-report-says/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rachelsandler/2019/10/04/the-sa...
- smabie 6y agoYou're saying they made 12bn dollars that they would not have if they didn't do all of this stuff? I kind of doubt it. I'm not expert on Purdue Parma, but I'm guessing this whole escapade will be EV negative for them.
- david38 6y agoHe said they made $12b profit quite clearly. He didn’t say they made $12b in illegal profits. Why would you try twisting his words like that?
- diogenescynic 6y agoThe consulting class is killing the rest of America with crap like this. Anything for a buck.
- jagrsw 6y ago~10 years ago I was visiting the Bay Area (I live in EU), and developed knee pain (rather strong). I went to the emergency room in a city hospital, and long story short, I was given a prescription for paracetamol or ibuprofen and something called Norco, which is apparently some kind of opioid. In the pharmacy (CVS i think), the pharmacist was calling somewhere to confirm the prescription and my identity and was trying to understand hard my foreign-issued driving license. After an hour of this identity verification circus, I left the pharmacy with this opioid drug and a pack of Paracetamol/Ibuprofen. Back in the hotel I read about it, and seeing something about opioids I threw it away (I guess, for no reason except that it sounded like it sounded like it's related to drugs) and treated myself with paracetamol (which worked). The experience in the hospital: 6h waiting and check-up straight in the reception room with 20 people watching, plus a doctor whose biggest concern was that I remember that his name is Lim and not Lime, plus being treated like a potential drug abuser in the pharmacy was a bit surreal. After getting back to EU, the hospital and my international insurer started negotiating price for this 6h waiting and 10 min check-up and an xray. It started with 2000 USD, in the end they settled on 1000 USD or so. Fortunately, I didn't pay anything cause international insurance. After a few years, when playing football in Switzerland, I stomped badly and sprained my ankle. I went to the local orthopedic clinic, where I was treated at once in doctor's office. Cost: 250 CHF (~250USD), xray included.
- com2kid 6y agoERs are expensive. An urgent care clinic would have gotten you quicker results at a lower cost. Typically I've waited under 30 minutes, and now days some have online wait time estimators, and at larger facilities x-rays are right down the hall.
- swasheck 6y agoThat we have to know and navigate the intricacies of healthcare and the nuances between urgent and emergent care is ridiculous in my opinion. Then you have to worry about whether the dr on shift is in network even though you’ve verified the facility is
- refurb 6y ago
- newbie789 6y agoI've at this point had (at least) eight friends die from opioid overdoses in the past ~10 years. I myself was nearly one of them a long time ago. It's really disappointing to see this bullshit.
- troughway 6y agoForgive me for sounding daft. I feel reluctant taking one Tylenol pill nevermind anything close to this - how exactly have you had at least eight friends die? Was it accidental? Uncontrolled dosage? Suicide? Do you forget that you had taken it already? I keep hearing about the opioid deaths and the crisis but what exactly happens that these people overdose on it?
- cool_dude85 6y agoThey're addicted to opioids and are, while under the influence of opioids, not making sound health decisions.
- smabie 6y agoThey're making sound (short term) decisions, it just doesn't look that way on the outside.
- s5300 6y agoHeroin (an opioid) is known to bring quite literally the happiest euphoria known to man. You can read this sentiment of it just about everywhere. For simplicity - take it as exactly that: a drug that induces the feeling of the happiest warmth imaginable Then, realize, some people come from absolutely fucked and broken lives. Being beaten and raped by their own family members they have to live with (sometimes for years) - if you're not aware that things like this go on - I'm mostly happy for you. But yeah, this is very much a thing. Then put together what it has to be like being a person coming from an absolutely broken place and having never had the slightest emotional warmth and happiness in your entire life, and finding something relatively cheap and easily sourced that takes away all of that pain for some amount of time. Then, realize, that tolerance to this euphoria inducing drug grows rather quickly, what you find on the street gets laced with shit like fentanyl, etc - and it's not hard to see why countless deaths occur. Also, somewhat unrelated, but you sound like you've never had much of a bout with extreme lasting physical pain. Shit can get unfathomably intense. For better answers perhaps, look to the bluelight forums.
- throwaway201103 6y agoAnd with all of this, many people seem ready to accept without hesitation a COVID-19 vaccine developed, tested, packaged and distributed at "warp speed", by huge pharmaceutical companies that have been granted immunity from liability.
- js2 6y agoMcKinsey's recommendations sound like something out of an AI trained on sociopaths.
- wilt 6y agoAnd the us health system is why i never want to work in the us. Not even for a few months.