6 ms·

Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If people wish to leave it's their choice

by dstola 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ramraj07 6y ago
Yep, who cares that racism and sexism can go on and create a disproportionately hostile environment for just some people right! "I don't see anything bad happening to me, so everyone shouldn't care either!" Thankfully even if the world doesn't act that way, the majority (for now) aren't evil enough to also blatantly proclaim that this is also fine.
- thegrimmest 6y ago
  > I don't see anything bad happening to me, so everyone shouldn't care either! What about: > people's rights to have consensual interactions and relationships with each other are more important than their right to be treated "fairly" whatever that actually means. The important point here is that we don't have a good working definition of "fair" that is universally agreed upon. The only ethical way to live in a society of people who fundamentally disagree is by optimising for consent.
  - ramraj07 6y ago
    As much as it's uncomfortable to define fair, I'd argue that it behooves us to strain and come to a conclusion. Every societal problem today and in history can probably be attributed to people not wanting to define a global fair, or defining it in a way (at least in retrospect) that was ostensibly below the mark. I'm sure that at some points in the US history thought it's fair to treat some people as slaves, so does your proclaimed universal sentence stand there too?
    - thegrimmest 6y ago
      While we're straining, the more important question is to what degree is it ethical to impose your definition of fair on others. I would say that there is no ethical basis for the sort of extreme imposition that's currently the status quo. Slavery is clearly not a consensual relationship so it really doesn't apply here. Yes we should make everyone free. No we should not change the definition.
    - notSupplied 6y ago
      That presumes your view of fair will ultimately end up on the right side of history, just like the eventual abolition of slavery was. However that is not yet knowable at the present. While you are focused on how your political view is the “right one”, @thegrimmest is more focused on how people should coexist when they all hold strong-but-different ideas of what is fair, and which of those will ultimately go down in history as ”moral progress” is yet unknown.
sumedh 6y ago
> Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If an employee was sexually harassing female employees, should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?
- throwawayriver 6y ago
  The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police. Glad you agree.
  - sumedh 6y ago
    Why do you I think I agree with you? So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands or be responsible and have an appropriate sexual harassment policy, train their employees on how to identify and deal with sexual harassment, have a clear procedure on how to file and deal with complaints. Maybe you will call such things "babysitting", I say its being responsible.
    - throwawayriver 6y ago
      >Why do you I think I agree with you? "should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?" The company is doing something by not babysitting the employees. Not baby sitting the employees is the only correct option here. >So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands Yes they should call the police, and it's not "washing their hands". Sexual harassment is a criminal offence. Your employer shouldn't be "handling" that like they shouldn't be "handling" rape. >have an appropriate sexual harassment policy, train their employees on how to identify and deal with sexual harassment, have a clear procedure on how to file and deal with complaints. The policy is the law. Adults shouldn't have their employer telling them that sexual harassment is a no no. >Maybe you will call such things "babysitting", I say its being responsible. The responsible thing is to involve the authorities when one of your employees is committing a crime. Simple as that.
      - sumedh 6y ago
kaitai 6y ago
Does there exist a thing called "effective management" or not? Do you just give a free pass to all companies for all actions? Is there any evidence that can exist that supports bad management, given that complaining isn't evidence, leaving is not evidence, calling it out isn't evidence sufficient for you? If Paul Graham called it bad management would that suffice?

Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If people wish to leave it's their choice

by dstola 6y ago

Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If people wish to leave it's their choice

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ramraj07 6y ago

Yep, who cares that racism and sexism can go on and create a disproportionately hostile environment for just some people right! "I don't see anything bad happening to me, so everyone shouldn't care either!" Thankfully even if the world doesn't act that way, the majority (for now) aren't evil enough to also blatantly proclaim that this is also fine.

thegrimmest 6y ago
> I don't see anything bad happening to me, so everyone shouldn't care either! What about: > people's rights to have consensual interactions and relationships with each other are more important than their right to be treated "fairly" whatever that actually means. The important point here is that we don't have a good working definition of "fair" that is universally agreed upon. The only ethical way to live in a society of people who fundamentally disagree is by optimising for consent.
- ramraj07 6y ago
  As much as it's uncomfortable to define fair, I'd argue that it behooves us to strain and come to a conclusion. Every societal problem today and in history can probably be attributed to people not wanting to define a global fair, or defining it in a way (at least in retrospect) that was ostensibly below the mark. I'm sure that at some points in the US history thought it's fair to treat some people as slaves, so does your proclaimed universal sentence stand there too?
  - thegrimmest 6y ago
    While we're straining, the more important question is to what degree is it ethical to impose your definition of fair on others. I would say that there is no ethical basis for the sort of extreme imposition that's currently the status quo. Slavery is clearly not a consensual relationship so it really doesn't apply here. Yes we should make everyone free. No we should not change the definition.
  - notSupplied 6y ago
    That presumes your view of fair will ultimately end up on the right side of history, just like the eventual abolition of slavery was. However that is not yet knowable at the present. While you are focused on how your political view is the “right one”, @thegrimmest is more focused on how people should coexist when they all hold strong-but-different ideas of what is fair, and which of those will ultimately go down in history as ”moral progress” is yet unknown.

sumedh 6y ago

> Babysitting employees is not really a function of the employers. If an employee was sexually harassing female employees, should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?

throwawayriver 6y ago
The company should not babysit the employees, and should call the police. Glad you agree.
- sumedh 6y ago
  Why do you I think I agree with you? So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands or be responsible and have an appropriate sexual harassment policy, train their employees on how to identify and deal with sexual harassment, have a clear procedure on how to file and deal with complaints. Maybe you will call such things "babysitting", I say its being responsible.
  - throwawayriver 6y ago
    >Why do you I think I agree with you? "should the company do something or should it not babysit employees?" The company is doing something by not babysitting the employees. Not baby sitting the employees is the only correct option here. >So the company should just call the Police and wash their hands Yes they should call the police, and it's not "washing their hands". Sexual harassment is a criminal offence. Your employer shouldn't be "handling" that like they shouldn't be "handling" rape. >have an appropriate sexual harassment policy, train their employees on how to identify and deal with sexual harassment, have a clear procedure on how to file and deal with complaints. The policy is the law. Adults shouldn't have their employer telling them that sexual harassment is a no no. >Maybe you will call such things "babysitting", I say its being responsible. The responsible thing is to involve the authorities when one of your employees is committing a crime. Simple as that.
    - sumedh 6y ago

kaitai 6y ago

Does there exist a thing called "effective management" or not? Do you just give a free pass to all companies for all actions? Is there any evidence that can exist that supports bad management, given that complaining isn't evidence, leaving is not evidence, calling it out isn't evidence sufficient for you? If Paul Graham called it bad management would that suffice?