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It's a fact, but it means nothing without context. I punched a man in the face yesterday. To determine if I'm a violent person it's important to know whether I

It's a fact, but it means nothing without context. I punched a man in the face yesterday. To determine if I'm a violent person it's important to know whether I punched a man who was pushing his child on a swing set, or whether I punched a man who was crawling through a window in my home.

slg 6y ago
What context would exonerate Coinbase of fostering an environment that results in 75% of its Black employees feeling discriminated against? And if that context existed, why didn't Coinbase mention it in their preemptive rebuttal?
- zpeti 6y ago
  How about the CEO refusing to align with far left politics? Whether you think that is good or bad, that could well be the reason for them leaving, but it doesn't actually mean that there was overt racism.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    I don't understand the premise here. Most of their Black employees left, not their far left employees.
    - polartx 6y ago
      If you’re truly ignorant to the social pressures the black community places on each other (specifically the prevailing majority on the ‘dissident’ thinkers), than it’s a topic I suggest you read in to.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        Black Democrats (most Black people are Democrats, something for which there is some social pressure) are generally more conservative, and significantly more religious, than other Democrats. So: no, this isn't responsive to what I said. (One good source: White & Laird).
        polartx 6y ago
        All that means is that social pressures (in this case) weren’t exerted using the lever of religion or political affiliation. That doesn’t at all mean that other levers don’t exist or weren’t leveraged. Such as the common, ‘uncle tom’ or ‘not black enough’ social pressure commonly applied in the black community.
        tptacek 6y ago
        "Uncle Tom" and "Not Black Enough" have nothing to do with far-leftism. As I just said, with an academic source: Black people are relatively more conservative than other Democrats. To the extent that we're including Black Republicans in the mix, the analysis gets even weirder.
        kortilla 6y ago
        > which there is some social pressure Lol, that’s understating it a bit. The president elect said “you ain’t black” to black people who even consider Trump. An old white man confidently telling black people their identity is jeopardized if they even consider not voting for him.
        tptacek 6y ago
        The President-elect, obviously, is also not far-left. White & Laird's book is super interesting. Check it out.
  - slg 6y ago
    Can you expand on what you mean by "far left politics"? Reminder, this happened in late 2018 and early 2019. It was before this year's round of Black Lives Matter protests. It was also before Coinbase issued its no politics edict. I am really struggling to think of what "far left politics" you are referring to here that would be important enough to the Black employees of Coinbase that it results in 75% of them leaving.
    - ergocoder 6y ago
      Far left politics is an extremist. For example, if you criticize BLM for looting, you will be labeled racists. Looting small shop owners makes no sense. Many shop owners are even black. This happened in Seattle where many shop owners support BLM. You might say, well, that was an exception. But Noah Trevor (an influential person) also justified looting because police breaks social contract first. Now why would you loot random shops because of that? The fact that Noah hasn't been canceled makes me think a lot of BLM supporters see looting as positive. To sum up, you basically can't say anything bad about BLM. Otherwise, you would be labeled as racists and canceled. This is a trend in the far-left politics. They would force you to personally sacrifice to better society. Another example is homeless people camping in front of your shop. If you try to make them go away, you will also be canceled. This far-left politics is just evil, IMO.
      - slg 6y ago
        To repeat myself, this happened in late 2018 and early 2019. That was before the round of protests that you are speaking about. What far left political issue was Coinbase potentially fighting against during the relevant time window that would have pushed these employees out? Also I think you mean Trevor Noah and not Noah Trevor.
      - cbthrow91 6y ago
        @slg: I believe CB has internally discouraged politics in the workplace not related to the mission since before 2020
        deleted 6y ago
  - CyanLite4 6y ago
    That’s the problem. Black lives mattering is a political issue only to those of privilege. I can’t believe we’re actually having political debate if certain people’s lives should matter or not.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  I can think of contexts, especially when n=15(if this was a statistical study on insulin response to artificial sweeteners, people would be saying the sample size is too small to draw conclusions), but I don't know if developing hypothetical scenarios is useful. Learning the true context is most important. This could be done by corroborating allegations for example.
  - fractionalhare 6y ago
    > I can think of contexts Yes that's what was asked; which ones? > especially when n=15(if this was a statistical study on insulin response to artificial sweeteners, people would be saying the sample size is too small to draw conclusions) And those people would be wrong. It's incorrect to dismiss a study based on sample size without a discussion of significance and effect size in the context of the data. Moreover I reject the premise that you should be assessing this story quantitatively rather than qualitatively. But if you insist: what are your priors on whether or not a given company engaged in discrimination, and how do these change if you're told 75% of employees of a particular demographic stated there was discrimination?
    - googlryas 6y ago
      Okay - one context is where one department has a large number of black people, and that department is defragged for purely business reasons to a different office across the country. Most people never choose the relocation package, and so a big chunk of black employees end up quitting. That's the event that triggered 8 black employees of the 15 who left as I understand it from the article. > what are your priors on whether or not a given company engaged in discrimination, and how do these change if you're told 75% of employees of a particular demographic stated there was discrimination? I completely agree that it's a very bad look. It is probably even more likely than not that given those facts, it is due to racism. I guess the question comes down to, philosophically, how one answers the following question: In the quest to eradicate racism and racists, is it better to be over-zealous and destroy a few non-racists to make sure you get all the actual racists(the chemo approach) - or is it better to be slightly more circumspect and let a few racists slip through the cracks so that far fewer non-racists are punished (the US judicial system ideal)?
- cbthrow91 6y ago
  Without the additional context from the article, I think citing 75% is a bit misleading. "When Coinbase announced it would be opening an office in Portland, Ore., several Black employees in the compliance department who worked remotely were told to move there or reapply for new jobs, four former employees said." "All of the Black workers in the compliance division ended up among the group of 15 who left." Without concrete evidence of discrimination in the article, my mind jumps to this being the pivotal cause of the stats, one team getting asked to relocate and that team being disproportionate in its demographics. I know from co-workers that the company once had a strong stance against remote work and made limited exceptions. I can see that being a source of a lot of discontent. Asking folks to move to a new city is a big ask too; I could see the company having handled that poorly. On the upside CB shifted to remote-first which should be great for being able to have a more diverse workforce. And contrary to some of the comments here, I take that as strong evidence of the ability for our leadership team to acknowledge mistakes and course correct.
  - slg 6y ago
    Ok, let's accept what you say as fact and ignore that an exception was made for the single White employee in that department which wasn't made for any of the Black employees you are referencing. Let's also ignore the weirdness of 40% of the company's Black employees being on a single seemingly small team. That still leaves 7 other employees in other departments who left the company in a 6 month window due to feeling discriminated against. 35% is obviously a better number than 75%, but it doesn't allow you to dismiss this problem.
    - cbthrow91 6y ago
      Just went back to double check the article and am actually not certain how you are getting to the number 75%. 11 employees cited a complaint to HR according to the article. Where are you getting the denominator for total number of black employees in 2019? There's a data mismatch between the CB blog post and the article. CB cites that only 2-3 formal complaints were filed iirc. 11 employee complaints matches pretty closely with the PDX group. -- FWIW I'm not dismissing the complaints. I've worked and studied in places where I've felt like an outsider; I've seen people make inappropriate comments about race+stereotypes in past work environments; I've also seen people make fishing claims of racial discrimination. I wasn't on those teams in 2019, so the truth is I simply don't know. From what I see today and the lack of concrete evidence in the article, I do have some doubts about the overall impression the article tries to give. I have the sense that certain information might have been omitted that might paint a clearer picture. I could totally be wrong as well.

slg 6y ago

What context would exonerate Coinbase of fostering an environment that results in 75% of its Black employees feeling discriminated against? And if that context existed, why didn't Coinbase mention it in their preemptive rebuttal?

zpeti 6y ago
How about the CEO refusing to align with far left politics? Whether you think that is good or bad, that could well be the reason for them leaving, but it doesn't actually mean that there was overt racism.
- tptacek 6y ago
  I don't understand the premise here. Most of their Black employees left, not their far left employees.
  - polartx 6y ago
    If you’re truly ignorant to the social pressures the black community places on each other (specifically the prevailing majority on the ‘dissident’ thinkers), than it’s a topic I suggest you read in to.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      Black Democrats (most Black people are Democrats, something for which there is some social pressure) are generally more conservative, and significantly more religious, than other Democrats. So: no, this isn't responsive to what I said. (One good source: White & Laird).
      - polartx 6y ago
        All that means is that social pressures (in this case) weren’t exerted using the lever of religion or political affiliation. That doesn’t at all mean that other levers don’t exist or weren’t leveraged. Such as the common, ‘uncle tom’ or ‘not black enough’ social pressure commonly applied in the black community.
        tptacek 6y ago
        "Uncle Tom" and "Not Black Enough" have nothing to do with far-leftism. As I just said, with an academic source: Black people are relatively more conservative than other Democrats. To the extent that we're including Black Republicans in the mix, the analysis gets even weirder.
      - kortilla 6y ago
        > which there is some social pressure Lol, that’s understating it a bit. The president elect said “you ain’t black” to black people who even consider Trump. An old white man confidently telling black people their identity is jeopardized if they even consider not voting for him.
        tptacek 6y ago
        The President-elect, obviously, is also not far-left. White & Laird's book is super interesting. Check it out.
- slg 6y ago
  Can you expand on what you mean by "far left politics"? Reminder, this happened in late 2018 and early 2019. It was before this year's round of Black Lives Matter protests. It was also before Coinbase issued its no politics edict. I am really struggling to think of what "far left politics" you are referring to here that would be important enough to the Black employees of Coinbase that it results in 75% of them leaving.
  - ergocoder 6y ago
    Far left politics is an extremist. For example, if you criticize BLM for looting, you will be labeled racists. Looting small shop owners makes no sense. Many shop owners are even black. This happened in Seattle where many shop owners support BLM. You might say, well, that was an exception. But Noah Trevor (an influential person) also justified looting because police breaks social contract first. Now why would you loot random shops because of that? The fact that Noah hasn't been canceled makes me think a lot of BLM supporters see looting as positive. To sum up, you basically can't say anything bad about BLM. Otherwise, you would be labeled as racists and canceled. This is a trend in the far-left politics. They would force you to personally sacrifice to better society. Another example is homeless people camping in front of your shop. If you try to make them go away, you will also be canceled. This far-left politics is just evil, IMO.
    - slg 6y ago
      To repeat myself, this happened in late 2018 and early 2019. That was before the round of protests that you are speaking about. What far left political issue was Coinbase potentially fighting against during the relevant time window that would have pushed these employees out? Also I think you mean Trevor Noah and not Noah Trevor.
    - cbthrow91 6y ago
      @slg: I believe CB has internally discouraged politics in the workplace not related to the mission since before 2020
      - deleted 6y ago
- CyanLite4 6y ago
  That’s the problem. Black lives mattering is a political issue only to those of privilege. I can’t believe we’re actually having political debate if certain people’s lives should matter or not.
oh_sigh 6y ago
I can think of contexts, especially when n=15(if this was a statistical study on insulin response to artificial sweeteners, people would be saying the sample size is too small to draw conclusions), but I don't know if developing hypothetical scenarios is useful. Learning the true context is most important. This could be done by corroborating allegations for example.
- fractionalhare 6y ago
  > I can think of contexts Yes that's what was asked; which ones? > especially when n=15(if this was a statistical study on insulin response to artificial sweeteners, people would be saying the sample size is too small to draw conclusions) And those people would be wrong. It's incorrect to dismiss a study based on sample size without a discussion of significance and effect size in the context of the data. Moreover I reject the premise that you should be assessing this story quantitatively rather than qualitatively. But if you insist: what are your priors on whether or not a given company engaged in discrimination, and how do these change if you're told 75% of employees of a particular demographic stated there was discrimination?
  - googlryas 6y ago
    Okay - one context is where one department has a large number of black people, and that department is defragged for purely business reasons to a different office across the country. Most people never choose the relocation package, and so a big chunk of black employees end up quitting. That's the event that triggered 8 black employees of the 15 who left as I understand it from the article. > what are your priors on whether or not a given company engaged in discrimination, and how do these change if you're told 75% of employees of a particular demographic stated there was discrimination? I completely agree that it's a very bad look. It is probably even more likely than not that given those facts, it is due to racism. I guess the question comes down to, philosophically, how one answers the following question: In the quest to eradicate racism and racists, is it better to be over-zealous and destroy a few non-racists to make sure you get all the actual racists(the chemo approach) - or is it better to be slightly more circumspect and let a few racists slip through the cracks so that far fewer non-racists are punished (the US judicial system ideal)?
cbthrow91 6y ago
Without the additional context from the article, I think citing 75% is a bit misleading. "When Coinbase announced it would be opening an office in Portland, Ore., several Black employees in the compliance department who worked remotely were told to move there or reapply for new jobs, four former employees said." "All of the Black workers in the compliance division ended up among the group of 15 who left." Without concrete evidence of discrimination in the article, my mind jumps to this being the pivotal cause of the stats, one team getting asked to relocate and that team being disproportionate in its demographics. I know from co-workers that the company once had a strong stance against remote work and made limited exceptions. I can see that being a source of a lot of discontent. Asking folks to move to a new city is a big ask too; I could see the company having handled that poorly. On the upside CB shifted to remote-first which should be great for being able to have a more diverse workforce. And contrary to some of the comments here, I take that as strong evidence of the ability for our leadership team to acknowledge mistakes and course correct.
- slg 6y ago
  Ok, let's accept what you say as fact and ignore that an exception was made for the single White employee in that department which wasn't made for any of the Black employees you are referencing. Let's also ignore the weirdness of 40% of the company's Black employees being on a single seemingly small team. That still leaves 7 other employees in other departments who left the company in a 6 month window due to feeling discriminated against. 35% is obviously a better number than 75%, but it doesn't allow you to dismiss this problem.
  - cbthrow91 6y ago
    Just went back to double check the article and am actually not certain how you are getting to the number 75%. 11 employees cited a complaint to HR according to the article. Where are you getting the denominator for total number of black employees in 2019? There's a data mismatch between the CB blog post and the article. CB cites that only 2-3 formal complaints were filed iirc. 11 employee complaints matches pretty closely with the PDX group. -- FWIW I'm not dismissing the complaints. I've worked and studied in places where I've felt like an outsider; I've seen people make inappropriate comments about race+stereotypes in past work environments; I've also seen people make fishing claims of racial discrimination. I wasn't on those teams in 2019, so the truth is I simply don't know. From what I see today and the lack of concrete evidence in the article, I do have some doubts about the overall impression the article tries to give. I have the sense that certain information might have been omitted that might paint a clearer picture. I could totally be wrong as well.