4 ms·

Hopefully also for Linux on both server and desktop side. The M1 as the first powerful ARM consumer device plus the availability of ARM servers in the cloud wil

by ricw 6y ago

Hopefully also for Linux on both server and desktop side. The M1 as the first powerful ARM consumer device plus the availability of ARM servers in the cloud will hopefully lead to the ARM eco-system breaking out of its mobile stronghold.

tjoff 6y ago
So far ARM devices have mostly been quite locked up and hard to install anything else than what was shipped on them. Until that changes I don't see much point of ARM as it will only erode the PC that we have become accustomed to. I'd much rather live in an x86-only ecosystem than one without choice.
- my123 6y ago
  The Windows on Arm devices and Arm Macs are not locked down. (and neither are the Arm Chromebooks by the way too)
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Windows on Arm devices don't allow you to disable secure boot last time I checked. That's "locked down" if I can't run a kernel I compile.
    - my123 6y ago
      What? Every single one of them does. Just switch to the UEFI Setup and disable Secure Boot. Note that I'm talking about Arm 64-bit Windows, and not the earlier Windows RT which is dead. Details for Linux for the best-supported Windows on arm64 laptops on that front at: https://github.com/aarch64-laptops/build https://github.com/aarch64-laptops/build
      - monocasa 6y ago
        As of 2017, they both didn't allow UEFI Secure Boot to be disabled, and didn't allow UEFI Secure Boot to be switched into Custom Mode. It looks like they walked some of that back at some point.
        my123 6y ago
        They did. Every single Windows on Arm64 system since release allowed Secure Boot to be off. That limitation only applied on 32-bit Arm systems (Windows RT & Windows 10 Mobile, ARM != ARM64)
        monocasa 6y ago
        Then that's not "every single one of them", because there are Windows on ARM devices that aren't ARM64.
  - entropicdrifter 6y ago
    Arm Macs are kinda locked down, but that's just for now. We'll see over the next year or so what the community comes up with as far as natively installing Linux goes.
    - my123 6y ago
      They are not. Locked down = Apple explicitly prevents it through code signing. Here, Apple doesn't prevent it in any way, and drivers can be developed. (drivers not present in Linux is not and will never mean that a device is locked down, don't stretch things please)
      - rjzzleep 6y ago
        I see, and having to reverse engineer drivers to be able to run anything else on it to you somehow means that it's open?
        my123 6y ago
        Not locked down and open aren't the same things, don't conflate matters/deflect to another thing please.
        rjzzleep 6y ago
        You're the one who's conflating things. The fact that you somehow think that someone _no longer_ locking you out of their bootloader is now considered open just shows how far we've gone off the rails. By that definition 99.99% of devices are open because you can just swap out the rom. All you need to do is figure out the pin and wiring and the serial protocols involved in communicating. My ducky keyboard is NOT open even though I replaced the firmware with my own. What kind of insane logic is that? And the fact that you and the other person here keeps conflating ANY documentation about ANY part of the hardware as contributing to Linux is even more ridiculous.
        saagarjha 6y ago
  - cesarb 6y ago
    > The Windows on Arm devices [...] are not locked down. https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-confirms-UEFI-fears-locks-down-ARM/ https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-c... "[...] But for ARM devices, Custom Mode is prohibited: “On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only Standard Mode may be enable.” [sic] Nor will users have the choice to simply disable secure boot, as they will on non-ARM systems: “Disabling Secure [Boot] MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems.” [sic] Between these two requirements, any ARM device that ships with Windows 8 will never run another operating system, unless it is signed with a preloaded key or a security exploit is found that enables users to circumvent secure boot."
    - my123 6y ago
      This is for 32-bit Arm, back in the Windows RT and Windows Phone days. This never applied to ARM64 Windows, ever.

by ricw 6y ago

tjoff 6y ago

So far ARM devices have mostly been quite locked up and hard to install anything else than what was shipped on them. Until that changes I don't see much point of ARM as it will only erode the PC that we have become accustomed to. I'd much rather live in an x86-only ecosystem than one without choice.

my123 6y ago
The Windows on Arm devices and Arm Macs are not locked down. (and neither are the Arm Chromebooks by the way too)
- monocasa 6y ago
  Windows on Arm devices don't allow you to disable secure boot last time I checked. That's "locked down" if I can't run a kernel I compile.
  - my123 6y ago
    What? Every single one of them does. Just switch to the UEFI Setup and disable Secure Boot. Note that I'm talking about Arm 64-bit Windows, and not the earlier Windows RT which is dead. Details for Linux for the best-supported Windows on arm64 laptops on that front at: https://github.com/aarch64-laptops/build https://github.com/aarch64-laptops/build
    - monocasa 6y ago
      As of 2017, they both didn't allow UEFI Secure Boot to be disabled, and didn't allow UEFI Secure Boot to be switched into Custom Mode. It looks like they walked some of that back at some point.
      - my123 6y ago
        They did. Every single Windows on Arm64 system since release allowed Secure Boot to be off. That limitation only applied on 32-bit Arm systems (Windows RT & Windows 10 Mobile, ARM != ARM64)
        monocasa 6y ago
        Then that's not "every single one of them", because there are Windows on ARM devices that aren't ARM64.
- entropicdrifter 6y ago
  Arm Macs are kinda locked down, but that's just for now. We'll see over the next year or so what the community comes up with as far as natively installing Linux goes.
  - my123 6y ago
    They are not. Locked down = Apple explicitly prevents it through code signing. Here, Apple doesn't prevent it in any way, and drivers can be developed. (drivers not present in Linux is not and will never mean that a device is locked down, don't stretch things please)
    - rjzzleep 6y ago
      I see, and having to reverse engineer drivers to be able to run anything else on it to you somehow means that it's open?
      - my123 6y ago
        Not locked down and open aren't the same things, don't conflate matters/deflect to another thing please.
        rjzzleep 6y ago
        You're the one who's conflating things. The fact that you somehow think that someone _no longer_ locking you out of their bootloader is now considered open just shows how far we've gone off the rails. By that definition 99.99% of devices are open because you can just swap out the rom. All you need to do is figure out the pin and wiring and the serial protocols involved in communicating. My ducky keyboard is NOT open even though I replaced the firmware with my own. What kind of insane logic is that? And the fact that you and the other person here keeps conflating ANY documentation about ANY part of the hardware as contributing to Linux is even more ridiculous.
        saagarjha 6y ago
- cesarb 6y ago
  > The Windows on Arm devices [...] are not locked down. https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-confirms-UEFI-fears-locks-down-ARM/ https://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2012/jan/12/microsoft-c... "[...] But for ARM devices, Custom Mode is prohibited: “On an ARM system, it is forbidden to enable Custom Mode. Only Standard Mode may be enable.” [sic] Nor will users have the choice to simply disable secure boot, as they will on non-ARM systems: “Disabling Secure [Boot] MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems.” [sic] Between these two requirements, any ARM device that ships with Windows 8 will never run another operating system, unless it is signed with a preloaded key or a security exploit is found that enables users to circumvent secure boot."
  - my123 6y ago
    This is for 32-bit Arm, back in the Windows RT and Windows Phone days. This never applied to ARM64 Windows, ever.