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Sure Germany would have said they were the good guys. The difference is in what they did: seek out to exterminate tens of millions of Slavs, Jews, and other gro

Sure Germany would have said they were the good guys. The difference is in what they did: seek out to exterminate tens of millions of Slavs, Jews, and other groups they considered inferior. I get that it's important to see history from multiple points of view, but this idea that "Both sides thought what they were doing was right and there is always a way to justify the means" is just unabashed moral relativism.

whimsicalism 6y ago
But we didn't even need the nuclear bomb to beat the Germans.
- sir_bearington 6y ago
  True, but the nuclear bomb's original target was Germany and the parent comment was referring to Germany. Much of the same observations can be made about the Empire of Japan. I'm sure Imperial Japanese soldiers earnestly believed their subjugation of China and other mainland powers was just, but that doesn't alter it's depravity. There's value to be had in honestly recognizing that if I was born in Japan or Germany during the 1920s I'd probably have turned out just like the people I'm criticizing. But we also have to have conviction in what is good and what is evil.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > doesn't alter it's depravity. The holocaust was bad, but it's going to be a hard stretch to justify what we did in Japan because of the depravity of their soldiers in China. I have a conviction that that was an evil, evil, evil thing to do.
    - sir_bearington 6y ago
      An order of magnitude fewer people died in the atomic bombings than did in the conventional land advance into Germany. Japan had a larger population and more mountainous terrain suitable for defense. Japan intended to expend tens of millions of its own people's lives in operation Ketsugō. Between letting the Empire of Japan continue to exist without reform, a conventional invasion, and the atomic bombings the last option was by far the most humane. I don't know what you're going with this line of discussion, but this over-emphasis on the atomic bombings are a common talking point among Japanese apologists and nationalists to try and depict Japan as a victim rather than an aggressor. The atomic bombings, combined, claimed fewer lives than several individual conventional strategic bombing campaigns in both Germany and Japan.
      - whimsicalism 6y ago
        > Japan intended to expend tens of millions of its own people's lives in operation Ketsugō. Intended to expend tens of millions of its people's lives if the United States tried to take and occupy Japan. Most wars don't end with the other country being occupied or its government being overthrown.
        sir_bearington 6y ago
        Right that's what the US, France, and Britain did with Germany in WWI. And we know how that turned out. Fortunately, the Allied powers did not intend to repeat the mistake of settling for peace without reforming hostile powers into states that would coexist peacefully in the long term.
        TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
        > Most wars don't end with the other country being occupied or its government being overthrown. I thought that is precisely how most wars end.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        Reporting bias.
        whimsicalism 6y ago
        > I thought that is precisely how most wars end. Well I don't know what to tell you, it usually isn't.

whimsicalism 6y ago

But we didn't even need the nuclear bomb to beat the Germans.

sir_bearington 6y ago
True, but the nuclear bomb's original target was Germany and the parent comment was referring to Germany. Much of the same observations can be made about the Empire of Japan. I'm sure Imperial Japanese soldiers earnestly believed their subjugation of China and other mainland powers was just, but that doesn't alter it's depravity. There's value to be had in honestly recognizing that if I was born in Japan or Germany during the 1920s I'd probably have turned out just like the people I'm criticizing. But we also have to have conviction in what is good and what is evil.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > doesn't alter it's depravity. The holocaust was bad, but it's going to be a hard stretch to justify what we did in Japan because of the depravity of their soldiers in China. I have a conviction that that was an evil, evil, evil thing to do.
  - sir_bearington 6y ago
    An order of magnitude fewer people died in the atomic bombings than did in the conventional land advance into Germany. Japan had a larger population and more mountainous terrain suitable for defense. Japan intended to expend tens of millions of its own people's lives in operation Ketsugō. Between letting the Empire of Japan continue to exist without reform, a conventional invasion, and the atomic bombings the last option was by far the most humane. I don't know what you're going with this line of discussion, but this over-emphasis on the atomic bombings are a common talking point among Japanese apologists and nationalists to try and depict Japan as a victim rather than an aggressor. The atomic bombings, combined, claimed fewer lives than several individual conventional strategic bombing campaigns in both Germany and Japan.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      > Japan intended to expend tens of millions of its own people's lives in operation Ketsugō. Intended to expend tens of millions of its people's lives if the United States tried to take and occupy Japan. Most wars don't end with the other country being occupied or its government being overthrown.
      - sir_bearington 6y ago
        Right that's what the US, France, and Britain did with Germany in WWI. And we know how that turned out. Fortunately, the Allied powers did not intend to repeat the mistake of settling for peace without reforming hostile powers into states that would coexist peacefully in the long term.
      - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
        > Most wars don't end with the other country being occupied or its government being overthrown. I thought that is precisely how most wars end.
        Gibbon1 6y ago
        Reporting bias.
        whimsicalism 6y ago
        > I thought that is precisely how most wars end. Well I don't know what to tell you, it usually isn't.