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Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not

by aphroz 6y ago

Not at all. Yes Switzerland is probably the best country if you want to follow the rules, have a good quality of life and good education for your children. Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges. This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors. From a Swiss person.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
>This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors Can you please expand on those two points?
- fearface 6y ago
  Investors have very little risk appetite, enterprise makes big money, but innivation is usually pressured into low-cost as much as possible. It’s hard to find a developer job where you get decent pay and interesting work with a swiss company. Source, I’m a software developer since 20 years in Switzerand
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    >Investors have very little risk appetite Are high profile investors in Swizterland interested only in retail investments?
- bluetomcat 6y ago
  Swiss culture is all about safety, confidentiality and responsible spending of already earned money. Additionally, the prevailing business model is that of the Mittelstand small-to-medium enterprise. Small factories spread throughout the whole country, highly specialized in one thing (producing mostly bits of industrial equipment), co-dependent on other such companies to form the economic blood system of the country. A fascinatingly-organized society, nevertheless. From a Bulgarian who has been there for 1 year.
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    That makes sense, thanks. So there's no dearth of entrepreneurship in CH, but it's concentrated in SMEs focussed on machinery rather than say Internet startups.
- corty 6y ago
  In Germany, the southwest, especially Swabia, is more conservative than the north. More tidy-freaks, stingy pennypinchers, more-concerned-with-the-appearance holier-than-thou, "we have always done it like this" and "you didn't clean your sidewalk properly, I've found a leave". Maybe "Kehrwoche" and "schwäbische Hausfrau" will yield sone entertaining google results. Businesswise, it is the region of small to medium family businesses, where the father of course passes on a highly emphasized tradition to the eldest son. Switzerland is like this, turned to eleven, plus a lot of nationalism and need to be separate from the bigger neighbours. You won't get money from a bank or investor down there unless you are solidly local, doing something they understand and looks like all the other medium family businesses making machines or parts down there. Caveat: Of course this is full of personal impressions, stereotypes and things like that. And it is strictly a collection of more negative aspects, there is of course a positive side.
  - Nimitz14 6y ago
    I have so many issues with this. 1. BW is governed by the greens. You know what counties get the highest CDU vote in elections? It's not in the south, it's in Niedersachsen (Cloppenburg etc.). 2. Switzerland has different cantons which are very different. I live in the French part where the average person speaks three languages and 40% are foreigners. 3. I can totally understand swiss' people wish to be separate, this has resulted in them having by FAR higher living standards than other Europeans. Salaries are TWICE as high while taxes are TWICE as low. I'm underestimating that by the way. In the meantime Europe has fucked themselves with the Euro and massive migration which has depressed wages, good luck dealing with that. 4. There is HUGE amounts of funding compared to Germany. I'm in the process of that right now and it's kind of insane how many different options are for getting 5-6 digit sums. Got approved for 100k last week and applying for more.
    - corty 6y ago
      1. Nope, BW greens are not a counter for the population and businesses to behave in a conservative way. Also, BW greens are kind of special, Kretschmann and Palmer are seen as pariahs in the rest of the german green party. They aren't even very green, e.g. they are quite supportive of the local BW car industry which the rest of German greens wants to see gone yesterday. 2. Yes, the French and Italian speaking parts are quite different. But thats less than half of Switzerland, and the big spot everyone seems to be drawn to seems to be Zürich. 3. Yes, but that is just a reason, not a counterargument. Also, costs are TWICE as high in certain areas, i.e. personell and stuff that is not imported from the EU. 4. I don't know what you are doing, and of course I do wish you all the best. But beware and remember that the costs will be high. Switzerland is much more automated than the neighbours, because noone can afford hiring people.
jcfrei 6y ago
There are very interesting software companies in Switzerland. And those companies are taking a lot of risks as well. Maybe your impression stems from the fact that it's not a very visible ecosystem and the funding is obviously much smaller than in bigger economies.
- atemerev 6y ago
  These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.
  - jcfrei 6y ago
    Don't know why you are talking in absolutes here. There's quite a bit of venture funding outside of the cryptocurrency space. Crunchbase shows $2B total in funding for Zurich alone (https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups) - don't know how that compares internationally but it's definitely something rather than nothing.
    - nextos 6y ago
      Yes, and there's also a great biotech startup & VC ecosystem.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    That's an interesting claim! Is there a tax efficient way to structure a tech company in Switzerland? Taxation doesn't look very good neither on the personal level (income tax / dividend tax / tax on deemed rental value of your property if you own a house!!!) nor the company one (corporate rate tax, high cost of personnel). They do have some good deductions and a lump sum income tax for foreigners relocating to Switzerland but it seems like you won't benefit from it unless your income is 7 times higher than your yearly rent (or deemed property rental value if you own). Is there maybe some possible legal fiscal loophole with foreign entities?
somedude895 6y ago
I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks
- 8ytecoder 6y ago
  If you have a lot to lose... My biggest change was the lose of appetite for risk when I moved to a first world country. When you have a comfortable life it’s hard to kick out of it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- langitbiru 6y ago
  And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there (compared to Europe).
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.
    - 6y ago
izacus 6y ago
Exactly. It's an amazing place to live, has good tech scene, but it's not Silicon Valley. Also the economic focus is completely different - they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses which form a significantly more resilient economy (there's a reason why Switzerland did rather well in this pandemic). Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team. It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?
- rjsw 6y ago
  > like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team. Ski jumping is a Nordic event not Alpine. There are a fair number of Morrocan Alpine ski racers.
- Rochus 6y ago
  > they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses Some of the largest companies have emerged in Switzerland.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell. Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.
      - Rochus 6y ago
Rochus 6y ago
>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schweiz-2020/ https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=407903024&cftoken=c257d6e2e698cba3-6DEF22F5-F482-4E24-240E27A83C801E68& https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=.... Also see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev....
- Rochus 6y ago
  Just came accross the 2019 Global Innovation Index report: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf The ranking on page xxxiv says: 1. Switzerland 2. Sweden 3. United States of America 4. Netherlands 5. United Kingdom 6. Finland 7. Denmark 8. Singapore 9. Germany ... so not too bad after all. This "is an annual ranking of countries by their capacity for, and success in, innovation. It is published by Cornell University, INSEAD, and the World Intellectual Property Organization, in partnership with other organisations and institutions,[1]:333 and is based on both subjective and objective data derived from several sources, including the International Telecommunication Union, the World Bank and the World Economic Forum" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index).
  - eps 6y ago
    This is not necessarily because Switzerland is high-tech friendly. There is an absolutely massive pharma industry in the country. Lots of innovation comes from there.
Hermel 6y ago
Nonsense! I’ve been part of the Swiss startup scene for more than a decade and there are plenty of interesting startups and opportunities. If there is a lack of anything, it is technical co-founders that are willing to take a risk. (Working at Google is just too convenient.) In any case, it you are looking for a nice challenge, feel free to consider my latest venture Aktionariat.
AnthonySmith01 6y ago
Is working in Silicon Valley for some enormous multinational really that intellectually stimulating though? When I visited Google in Silicon Valley (from Australia), I didn’t get the impression that the work was that more exciting or cutting edge. But that said, I did notice how run down Silicon Valley and much of the US cities/suburbs are. It did not strike me as a nice place to live.
- jldugger 6y ago
  Honestly, working on stuff at scale lets me tinker and analyze in ways I never got the chance to at university IT scale. You just didn't have the time or the capacity, and the ROI wasn't there.
pjmlp 6y ago
I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up. I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well. Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country. When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.
- niklasd 6y ago
  On the other hand, when speaking to a government employee, you're mostly speaking to someone who can make an actual decision on that matter, and can help you to solve your problem. Yes, there are many rules, but living there I've never had the feeling that this made the country inflexible.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    As south European, I think it is a personal matter, it basically boils down to how much one can adapt to living by rules, without the flexibility to bend the rules one is used to in other countries. There are plus and minus to both approaches, the rules approach favours more the society overall as everyone gets the same, while the flexible approach kind of favours the individual.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      Well, drive half an hour by car from southern Switzerland to Italy and you will notice that the road will be lined with garbage heaps on both sides. There are definitely some advantages if people are a bit tidy. And then try to achieve something at an Italian office without losing your mind. You can always negotiate with the Swiss, and there are always compromises.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        See, that is a good example of culture shock, I have zero issues negotiating in Italy. And as mentioned in other answers I enjoyed my time in Switzerland, and come back every time I manage to, so trying to make my point of view without attacking anyone.
lta 6y ago
I strongly agree with you. The country doesn't seem attractive at all to me. I'd rather think of Berlin, Paris or (sadly) London.

by aphroz 6y ago

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

>This is due to the mentality of the population and the risk aversion of the investors Can you please expand on those two points?

fearface 6y ago
Investors have very little risk appetite, enterprise makes big money, but innivation is usually pressured into low-cost as much as possible. It’s hard to find a developer job where you get decent pay and interesting work with a swiss company. Source, I’m a software developer since 20 years in Switzerand
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  >Investors have very little risk appetite Are high profile investors in Swizterland interested only in retail investments?
bluetomcat 6y ago
Swiss culture is all about safety, confidentiality and responsible spending of already earned money. Additionally, the prevailing business model is that of the Mittelstand small-to-medium enterprise. Small factories spread throughout the whole country, highly specialized in one thing (producing mostly bits of industrial equipment), co-dependent on other such companies to form the economic blood system of the country. A fascinatingly-organized society, nevertheless. From a Bulgarian who has been there for 1 year.
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  That makes sense, thanks. So there's no dearth of entrepreneurship in CH, but it's concentrated in SMEs focussed on machinery rather than say Internet startups.
corty 6y ago
In Germany, the southwest, especially Swabia, is more conservative than the north. More tidy-freaks, stingy pennypinchers, more-concerned-with-the-appearance holier-than-thou, "we have always done it like this" and "you didn't clean your sidewalk properly, I've found a leave". Maybe "Kehrwoche" and "schwäbische Hausfrau" will yield sone entertaining google results. Businesswise, it is the region of small to medium family businesses, where the father of course passes on a highly emphasized tradition to the eldest son. Switzerland is like this, turned to eleven, plus a lot of nationalism and need to be separate from the bigger neighbours. You won't get money from a bank or investor down there unless you are solidly local, doing something they understand and looks like all the other medium family businesses making machines or parts down there. Caveat: Of course this is full of personal impressions, stereotypes and things like that. And it is strictly a collection of more negative aspects, there is of course a positive side.
- Nimitz14 6y ago
  I have so many issues with this. 1. BW is governed by the greens. You know what counties get the highest CDU vote in elections? It's not in the south, it's in Niedersachsen (Cloppenburg etc.). 2. Switzerland has different cantons which are very different. I live in the French part where the average person speaks three languages and 40% are foreigners. 3. I can totally understand swiss' people wish to be separate, this has resulted in them having by FAR higher living standards than other Europeans. Salaries are TWICE as high while taxes are TWICE as low. I'm underestimating that by the way. In the meantime Europe has fucked themselves with the Euro and massive migration which has depressed wages, good luck dealing with that. 4. There is HUGE amounts of funding compared to Germany. I'm in the process of that right now and it's kind of insane how many different options are for getting 5-6 digit sums. Got approved for 100k last week and applying for more.
  - corty 6y ago
    1. Nope, BW greens are not a counter for the population and businesses to behave in a conservative way. Also, BW greens are kind of special, Kretschmann and Palmer are seen as pariahs in the rest of the german green party. They aren't even very green, e.g. they are quite supportive of the local BW car industry which the rest of German greens wants to see gone yesterday. 2. Yes, the French and Italian speaking parts are quite different. But thats less than half of Switzerland, and the big spot everyone seems to be drawn to seems to be Zürich. 3. Yes, but that is just a reason, not a counterargument. Also, costs are TWICE as high in certain areas, i.e. personell and stuff that is not imported from the EU. 4. I don't know what you are doing, and of course I do wish you all the best. But beware and remember that the costs will be high. Switzerland is much more automated than the neighbours, because noone can afford hiring people.

jcfrei 6y ago

There are very interesting software companies in Switzerland. And those companies are taking a lot of risks as well. Maybe your impression stems from the fact that it's not a very visible ecosystem and the funding is obviously much smaller than in bigger economies.

atemerev 6y ago
These companies were not financed by venture capital (except for some cryptocurrency companies, which are popular here indeed). Also, some of the software companies were moved here for tax reasons, but they were founded elsewhere.
- jcfrei 6y ago
  Don't know why you are talking in absolutes here. There's quite a bit of venture funding outside of the cryptocurrency space. Crunchbase shows $2B total in funding for Zurich alone (https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups https://www.crunchbase.com/hub/zurich-startups) - don't know how that compares internationally but it's definitely something rather than nothing.
  - nextos 6y ago
    Yes, and there's also a great biotech startup & VC ecosystem.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  That's an interesting claim! Is there a tax efficient way to structure a tech company in Switzerland? Taxation doesn't look very good neither on the personal level (income tax / dividend tax / tax on deemed rental value of your property if you own a house!!!) nor the company one (corporate rate tax, high cost of personnel). They do have some good deductions and a lump sum income tax for foreigners relocating to Switzerland but it seems like you won't benefit from it unless your income is 7 times higher than your yearly rent (or deemed property rental value if you own). Is there maybe some possible legal fiscal loophole with foreign entities?

somedude895 6y ago

I tend to agree. Apparently it's very hard to get funding for novel ideas in Switzerland. And yes, risk aversion is a big part of Swiss culture, an example of which being that Swiss are some of the most over-insured people, and savings rates also regularly top the charts. A fairly egalitarian society with a high standard of living makes for a people that doesn't like or "have to" take risks

8ytecoder 6y ago
If you have a lot to lose... My biggest change was the lose of appetite for risk when I moved to a first world country. When you have a comfortable life it’s hard to kick out of it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
langitbiru 6y ago
And there is a quote: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there (compared to Europe).
- triceratops 6y ago
  > Sometimes I wonder whether one of the factors that makes US the mecca of technology is the lack of safety net there Not really. My bet is on the abundance of capital (hello global reserve currency) combined with excellent universities and a cultural willingness to take risks and do bold things. People who need a safety net, such as food stamps or housing assistance, are rarely the people who start big companies. They're usually too caught up in just trying to survive day-to-day.
  - 6y ago

izacus 6y ago

Exactly. It's an amazing place to live, has good tech scene, but it's not Silicon Valley. Also the economic focus is completely different - they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses which form a significantly more resilient economy (there's a reason why Switzerland did rather well in this pandemic). Asking why the Swiss don't invest in same industries like Californians do would be like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team. It's a fundamentally different focus - is that so hard to understand to people living in the Valley? That not all economies see the value in javascript webpages?

rjsw 6y ago
> like asking Morrocans why they don't fund an Alpine ski jumping team. Ski jumping is a Nordic event not Alpine. There are a fair number of Morrocan Alpine ski racers.
Rochus 6y ago
> they focus on small enterprises and medium sized businesses Some of the largest companies have emerged in Switzerland.
- Rochus 6y ago
  For the sceptics: Nestlé, Roche, Novartis, BBC (now ABB), but also Swatch, Syngenta, Schindler, Logitech, Sonova, Ypsomed, etc. just to name a few.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Indeed, and working at any of them will teach how it feels like working on a place where software development is a cost center, not the business that they care to sell. Forget about doing Bonsais of quality following the latest trends of every software conference, what matters is the physical product that gets out of the assembly line.
    - Rochus 6y ago

Rochus 6y ago

>> Not much for developers who are looking for interesting challenges .. From a Swiss person This is simply not true. I'm Swiss and working as a developer and consultant in Switzerland since the nineties. I - as many others - was able to do several studies at a world-class university right on my doorstep without getting into debt. People are fair, hardworking, innovative and responsible. Switzerland has ideal conditions for companies and people looking for work. And it's a great place to live. Why do you think Google and others have large development departments in Switzerland? And it's also good for start-ups. Have a look at e.g. https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schweiz-2020/ https://www.organisator.ch/die-100-besten-startups-der-schwe... and https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=407903024&cftoken=c257d6e2e698cba3-6DEF22F5-F482-4E24-240E27A83C801E68& https://www.top100startups.swiss/index.cfm?page=136340&cfid=.... Also see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_revenue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swiss_companies_by_rev....

Rochus 6y ago
Just came accross the 2019 Global Innovation Index report: https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf https://www.wipo.int/edocs/pubdocs/en/wipo_pub_gii_2019.pdf The ranking on page xxxiv says: 1. Switzerland 2. Sweden 3. United States of America 4. Netherlands 5. United Kingdom 6. Finland 7. Denmark 8. Singapore 9. Germany ... so not too bad after all. This "is an annual ranking of countries by their capacity for, and success in, innovation. It is published by Cornell University, INSEAD, and the World Intellectual Property Organization, in partnership with other organisations and institutions,[1]:333 and is based on both subjective and objective data derived from several sources, including the International Telecommunication Union, the World Bank and the World Economic Forum" (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Innovation_Index).
- eps 6y ago
  This is not necessarily because Switzerland is high-tech friendly. There is an absolutely massive pharma industry in the country. Lots of innovation comes from there.

Hermel 6y ago

Nonsense! I’ve been part of the Swiss startup scene for more than a decade and there are plenty of interesting startups and opportunities. If there is a lack of anything, it is technical co-founders that are willing to take a risk. (Working at Google is just too convenient.) In any case, it you are looking for a nice challenge, feel free to consider my latest venture Aktionariat.

AnthonySmith01 6y ago

Is working in Silicon Valley for some enormous multinational really that intellectually stimulating though? When I visited Google in Silicon Valley (from Australia), I didn’t get the impression that the work was that more exciting or cutting edge. But that said, I did notice how run down Silicon Valley and much of the US cities/suburbs are. It did not strike me as a nice place to live.

jldugger 6y ago
Honestly, working on stuff at scale lets me tinker and analyze in ways I never got the chance to at university IT scale. You just didn't have the time or the capacity, and the ROI wasn't there.

pjmlp 6y ago

I fully agree, love your country, have spent two years of my life there and come every time an opportunity pops up. I speak fluently French, Italian, German and can manage plenty of Swiss German common expressions as well. Yet, the rules, oh boy, not sure how you will take this, but from my point of view Swiss world of rules makes the northern Germany feel as flexible as a South American country. When something must be done like A, it is A, not A- or A+, zero deviations.

niklasd 6y ago
On the other hand, when speaking to a government employee, you're mostly speaking to someone who can make an actual decision on that matter, and can help you to solve your problem. Yes, there are many rules, but living there I've never had the feeling that this made the country inflexible.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  As south European, I think it is a personal matter, it basically boils down to how much one can adapt to living by rules, without the flexibility to bend the rules one is used to in other countries. There are plus and minus to both approaches, the rules approach favours more the society overall as everyone gets the same, while the flexible approach kind of favours the individual.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Well, drive half an hour by car from southern Switzerland to Italy and you will notice that the road will be lined with garbage heaps on both sides. There are definitely some advantages if people are a bit tidy. And then try to achieve something at an Italian office without losing your mind. You can always negotiate with the Swiss, and there are always compromises.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      See, that is a good example of culture shock, I have zero issues negotiating in Italy. And as mentioned in other answers I enjoyed my time in Switzerland, and come back every time I manage to, so trying to make my point of view without attacking anyone.

lta 6y ago

I strongly agree with you. The country doesn't seem attractive at all to me. I'd rather think of Berlin, Paris or (sadly) London.