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Coming from conventional bikes, I don't understand who this is for. Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involve

Coming from conventional bikes, I don't understand who this is for. Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involved, often professional or semi-pro cyclists whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves. Ditto for some of the other details on the bike, like the medium-dish carbon rims — all for the sake of weight savings and aerodynamics (since carbon bikes will usually integrate things like formed handlebars and seat tubes, etc). Suffice it to say, you'd rarely see a commuter using a carbon bike. This bike, though, feels like a bit of an oxymoron. Expensive carbon frame with none of the aero features you'd usually see on one, including conventional handlebars. A lightweight carbon frame weighed down by a battery. High-performance rims and tyres but only one chain ring. Low-profile seat stays with mud guards on both wheels. A utilitarian, commuter feature set with a price tag that makes no sense at all.

robert_foss 6y ago
> A lightweight carbon frame weighed down by a battery. My thoughts exactly. Who's the target audience? And at that price point?
- jeffbee 6y ago
  The price point is comparable to the Specialized Turbo Vado 5 SL, a third-generation e-bike from another American company. The weight savings can make a big difference when you have to carry your bike up stairs or bring it on a train. Keep in mind that e-bikes compete with cars.
  - robert_foss 6y ago
    Maybe you're right. The Specialized Turbo Vado 5 SL seems to be 14.6kg, and this bike 11.8kg. If they're otherwise comparable maybe this bike actually makes some sense.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Both are lighter than most. Many e-bikes are over 50 pounds, sometimes way over. The Rad Runner is 75 pounds, the Strommer ST3 is 72 pounds, etc.
benmanns 6y ago
I have an older ebike with a large battery and it is outrageously heavy and hard to handle for everything except the actual ride. Perhaps there’s a market for people who want an ebike that’s a little easier to get up apartment stairs? For riding I don’t see a need.
- ebg13 6y ago
  > Perhaps there’s a market for people who want an ebike that’s a little easier to get up apartment stairs? A detachable battery might also help with this.
  - ianhowson 6y ago
    Or an aluminum frame that can deal with being banged around a little.
    - frenchy 6y ago
      Your partner might not like what that does to the apartment walls.
      - ianhowson 6y ago
        If my partner leaves, there's more room for bikes!
  - pletnes 6y ago
    The battery on my bike is perhaps 2 kg with the bike in total perhaps 26 ish. Removing the battery does not help except for hosing down a dirty bike or preventing theft of the battery.
  - boomskats 6y ago
    In Europe a lot of the Bosch/Yamaha bikes have the so-called 'walk mode', where you hold down a button and the bike powers itself up whatever slope at walking pace. For some reason I understand this mode is illegal in the US, but it makes all the difference over here - especially when going up stairs (or other 45 degree slopes).
nroets 6y ago
I agree with you entirely, BUT Isn't this how Tesla started ? A sportscar with subpar performance and impractical for many journeys due to limited range and charging options.
- notatoad 6y ago
  yes, but this is not the bicycle equivalent of a sports car. to put this bike in car terms, it's like if somebody tried to market a "Michael Shumacher signature edition" of the toyota corolla, and the only difference from the normal model was to swap out the steel body panels for carbon fibre ones. this isn't a racing bike, it's a boring old commuter made with good quality but completely normal components, a few fancy materials in visible places and a famous cyclist's name attached to it.
andor 6y ago
Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive That's not necessarily true. Most carbon frames are expensive because they are high-end models, not because of the material itself. I would be worried about durability though, if this is used like other commuter bikes. Carbon frames usually come warnings to not lean them against sharp objects, not sit on the top tube, etc. Unlike metals, the fibers are only strong in one direction. Anyone bumping into this bike by accident, e.g. when locking it against the same rack, might cause damage to the frame.
- chrisbennet 6y ago
  As a data point, my 2006 (carbon frame) Ibis Mojo mountain bike has seen quite a few crashes (in the woods) without sustaining any real damage. Maybe mountain bikes are less delicate?
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    There's almost certainly more margin built in to a mountain bike frame, but carbon fiber has a scary failure mode compared to metals no matter what- it appears absolutely fine until catastrophic delamination.
vwoolf 6y ago
All of what you say is true, and it's stupid expensive but also aesthetically incredible and super light. I'd buy one if I had stupid money to throw away. I don't, so I won't, but the appeal is there.
phamilton 6y ago
It's for the wealthy cyclist who is slowing down but still wants to ride with their crew. I know a few guys like that, mostly for mountain biking, but they also buy them for their wives so they can go for a ride together.
pletnes 6y ago
We have 1 car and 2 electric bikes rather than 2 cars. If you can reduce your car count, anything is worth it, give or take.
unethical_ban 6y ago
>A lightweight carbon frame weighed down by a battery. That's the entire point! To make an electric bike that weighs the same as a conventional bike. My aluminum frame road bike weighs about 23-24lbs, so having a 45-mile-range ebike weigh about the same is really cool. And just like any emerging market, no, it isn't meant to be for the masses day 1, just as the Model S wasn't. This is iterative.
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cranekam 6y ago
I agree with the overall sentiment — who is this for? — but: > carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involved, often professional or semi-pro cyclists whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves. just isn't true. Many hobbyist/amateur/weekend warrior-type cyclist ride carbon bikes. They can be had at lowish prices (my first was £1000) to multiples of the price of this Lemond ebike. Almost all owners of such bikes are limited by their own ability, not the bike. It's probably fair to assume a lightweight, high quality ebike would be pricey. Perhaps being carbon adds a bit more to the price but the material choice alone isn't totally ridiculous. > High-performance rims and tyres but only one chain ring. Single-ring setups with a wide-range rear cassette are actually a pretty good choice for a commuter bike. Less maintenance, less weight. A double chainring setup likely offers smaller gaps between gears but likely a comparable overall range from lowest to highest. On a commuter bike simplicity wins. I guess ultimately this bike is some combination of publicity stunt and Veblen good. I can't imagine Lemond anticipates selling many of them.
- kwaugh 6y ago
  > A double chainring setup likely offers smaller gaps between gears but likely a comparable overall range from lowest to highest. This isn't true. This bike is using a 40 gear crank in the front with an 11-40 cassette in the back. That puts the gear ratio at 1.0 on the low end and 3.64 on the high end. The corresponding Shimano GRX setup with a double chainring would be a 46-30 in the front and a 11-34 in the back. This gives a 0.88 ratio on the low end and 4.18 on the high end, which is actually quite a big difference. One could argue that the difference in gear ratio on the low end isn't a big deal because this bike has pedal assist, but the difference on the high end is quite noticeable.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Only if you're in a hurry.
  - wiredfool 6y ago
    No one (basically) is going to care about the difference between a 46/11 and a 40/11 when the assist drops out at 25kph. If anything, you’re much more likely to be able to use the 40/11. At the other end, the assist is going to cover a lot of gearing, and it’s going to make the gaps in a 1x setup a lot less important. (FWIW, I ride a 1x42/11-42 and a 2x 50/34-11/32. And a triple on the tandem, and I lived with a cx geared 1x 39-12/28 for a few years. High gears are drastically overrated unless you’re racing)
portlander52232 6y ago
You can buy a carbon bike at any mainstream bike shop, they aren’t just for pros anymore. I ride one because it feels amazingly sporty. I’m an enthusiast but not very athletic. The super light, stiff bike is just fun to ride. The aero features like integrate stem and bars is mostly found on time-trial and triathlon bikes. In contrast you can get conventional road bikes, gravel bikes, and mountain bikes in carbon at any nice bike shop.
- johnofthesea 6y ago
  And if you buy directly from brands that do not sell through local shops (like Dare or Canyon) it can be even cheaper. I commute on my carbon frame bike and use steel one only in winter now.
semi-extrinsic 6y ago
> whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves I'm a fluid dynamics researcher, and I'll tell you the money these people spend on "aero" and "weight saving" and "higher drivetrain efficiency" stuff is 99.9% snake oil. Unless you are among the top 1000 road bike racers in the world. Increasing your exercise load by half an hour per week, or spending a little time understanding and implementing aerodynamically efficient body posture or other forms of technique, will both yield improvements that are several orders of magnitude higher than the marginal improvements achieved by spending $$$ on "aero" and carbon fiber. I've seen detailed calculations of rider performance that indicate a 500 g saving in frame weight (which is huge), over the course of a 120 km race with 1200 m climb, will save you a whopping total of 15 seconds on ~4 hours of race time.
- masklinn 6y ago
  > I'm a fluid dynamics researcher, and I'll tell you the money these people spend on "aero" and "weight saving" and "higher drivetrain efficiency" stuff is 99.9% snake oil. Unless you are among the top 1000 road bike racers in the world. So, biking audiophilia.
  - tigen 6y ago
    At least weight saving is easily measurable and indisputable. Audiophilia focuses mostly on areas that are not so easily quantifiable.
    - darkerside 6y ago
      I've heard audiophilia derided as the practice of listening to the noise instead of the music, sand that was enough for me to get off the train and never think twice.
  - locusm 6y ago
    Carbon frames are worth it for the damping factor alone if you ride for more than an hour a week IMHO.
- 6y ago
altarius 6y ago
Carbon fiber frames are now quite common in mountain biking and road biking, many enthusiasts (just quite average riders) buy them. I think this bike for wealthy commuters and city dwellers, could replace public transit or Uber rides. People seem to have taken up cycling in cities due to the risk of riding on public transit. And as someone else said, taking a 50+lbs (25kg) e-bike inside or even upstairs is a pain. But I think most of all, this is sort of a "halo" product - the best bike they could build, probably very expensive, but "sexy" and definitely news-worthy - as this HN submission has shown. And in the future they can launch cheaper alu-framed versions of this bike when this bike has established LeMond's e-bike reputation.
- noir_lord 6y ago
  I bought a full carbon felt road bike in 2013 (2012 model so heavily discounted) for 768 quid. That's expensive for an average bike but entirely in the range for an equivalent quality alu bike - Carbon fiber simply isn't that exotic anymore.
string 6y ago
Plenty of cyclists in central London have carbon fibre commuter bikes and wear lycra and cleats for a sub-20 mile ride, stopping traffic lights every 2 minutes. I don't think logic has much to do with how most people choose cycling gear.
- deleted 6y ago
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PragmaticPulp 6y ago
E-bikes are perhaps the most misunderstood category of bike products right now. Traditional bikers have underestimated demand for e-bikes at every step of the way for one reason: Traditional biking has a massive selection bias effect that excludes anyone who isn’t in great physical shape. The deeper you are into cycling, the more homogenous your perception of what constitutes a biker. You’re not going to see average consumers at the top of 20-mile mountain bike trail with steep terrain at 7AM. You’re only going to see equally enthusiastic bikers who are highly trained and discipline. It leads to a stereotype that these are the only people who care to spend a lot of money on bikes. E-bikes turn that assumption upside down. They offset the physical fitness requirements and blow the doors wide open for anyone and everyone who wants to spend their way into the sport. Now those previously unreachable heights can be accessed by anyone with a credit card. It’s no longer just a niche hobby exclusive to those who can put years into building up their fitness and bike knowledge. The total addressable market of e-bikes is much greater than the total addressable market of conventional high end bikes for that reason. Ironically, this is creating a lot of animosity among traditional bikers. Previously, the most difficult uphill trails were lightly trafficked because only a select few could ride them. It was satisfying to be one of the few people at the top of a difficult trail at sunrise. Now, it’s not uncommon to be passed on the uphills by many people who are visibly out of shape, but use e-bikes to make up the difference (and then some). Some people are even hacking their e-bikes for more power or to allow power application without pedaling, turning them into electric dirt bikes that tear up trails. This is why we have so much regulation clamping down on e-bike access right now. Those regulations might be the biggest modulator in the size of the e-bike market.
- throwaway1777 6y ago
  Reminds me of when drones took off. Regulations took a while to catch up. At one point it was a huge nuisance with people flying little drones in every park. Fortunately now it’s died down with regulations and general knowledge of what’s acceptable, and I agree the same will happen with ebikes.
  - hated 6y ago
    Did regulation reduce drone usage? Or just lack of interest?
davycro 6y ago
I commute on a specialized turbo vado sl, a similar lightweight e-bike. An electric bicycle this light will handle more like a conventional bicycle, and it’s easier to lift up steps or load onto bike racks. This bicycle looks less cartoonish than my specialized, weighs less, and costs about the same.
jdeibele 6y ago
I had read a long time ago that a typical 3x9 arrangement has fewer "real" gears than 27. One reason is that you're not supposed to heavily use the gears that are the most opposed because it causes additional chain wear. Another is that some of the gears calculate to the same gear/inch. https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/how-many-gears-does-3x9-have-766680.html https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cran... has a nice summary, including a picture from Sheldon Brown's website. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/home.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/home.html Basically, there are 21 or 15 usable gears depending on how you want to calculate things. Then add to the equation that this is an electric bike and a single ring with 9 cassette gears seems reasonable.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  This is really just tired old wisdom handed down from the days of wide inflexible chains. Modern 8-speed+ chains can cover the whole cassette with ease. Additional wear from the dreaded cross chaining is never going to be significant when the cogs already have profiled teeth. It's always funny to read the hand wringing from MTB riders about this when they don't even bat an eye at the horrible inefficiencies of 20psi fat tires.
bloat 6y ago
Carbon fibre bikes are very common in my circles, i.e. very amateur middle aged club cyclists. Nothing to do with professionals, semi or otherwise. Also see plenty of them when commuting in London.
bitcurious 6y ago
It’s not uncommon in the biggest urban markets to bring your bike indoors overnight. The ability to easily lift the bike and carry it upstairs or just pick it up so you don’t sully the carpet is important. Low weight isn’t just for speed.
- xtqctz 6y ago
  Exactly. Carrying at 50lb ebike up a three story walk up is a hassle, but 25lbs is relatively easy.
  - gameswithgo 6y ago
    Using carbon fiber is saving on the order of 1 or 2 lbs though, not 25.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      50 pounds is a full suspension eMTB. I think most commuters like this are in the 30-35 pound range. I wouldn't be surprised if the total savings from carbon fiber on this bike is 4+ pounds. They use carbon everywhere, frame fork, seat post, wheels, handlebars... even the fenders.
taude 6y ago
I'm waiting to buy into a sleak looking, sub 30 pound e-bike for commuting. I'll probably pay up to $3K for such a bike. There's advantages to having it be an e-bike over just buying a scooter or such, like storage, parking downtown, etc. so it'll be pretty easy for me to justify a budget for a bike, as long as it's nice. I don't really like the external gearing of this bike, and not sure it needs standard Di2 type of components for shifting and whatnot.... This bike looks about 10x better than almost every other e-bike I've seen, so far. I'm sure we're about to see a lot of improvement in the next couple years of e-bike styling and tech...
gameswithgo 6y ago
One chain ring is the new thing these days, with 11+ cog cassettes. Lack of aero shape probably facilitates putting the battery in there. Though they could do the handle bars and seat stays at least.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  1x is a cost reduction measure disguised as a "new thing". Same price - less components = more profit.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I very much doubt that's true, as evidenced by cheaper bikes still sporting 3x chainrings. 1x is entirely about removing the front derailleur and all its associated complication. It's especially common in mountain bikes because they experience a lot more opportunity to break.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      That's what the bike industry wants people to believe so they have motivation to buy upgrades. 3x cranks weren't dropping like flies for 99.9% of users. Their MO is to always come up with what's going to be the latest new thing then use the media outlets to pump their idea to boost sales. Same thing is happening with the forced imposition of disc brakes on road bikes. Then it's going to be hookless rims that can only handle 75 psi max.
  - gameswithgo 6y ago
    When I was racing last (cat 3) the cost was higher on road bikes! Don't know if it still is. It is still a preferable setup if you don't need the range of gearing if a double. Front derailleurs are are common point of failure and noise and you make it all go away. (with either the proper sort of front chainring or a clutched derailleur in the rear to make sure the chain stay son) Drop weight and improve aero a bit too.
  - c0nsumer 6y ago
woah 6y ago
Ever carried a bike up some stairs???
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Carbon frames aren't prohibitively expensive. Almost all of them are made in Taiwan or mainland China now and you can get cheap frames from the same factories that make the expensive ones. There was a time when carbon forks were expensive. They became commoditized 20 years ago. The same has happened now with the rest of the bike.
jjav 6y ago
> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive Back in the 90s, yes. Carbon frames are the mainstream now and have been for at least the last decade. > I don't understand who this is for I'd consider it if I was still commuting longer distances but covid put a stop to that. The range is a bit too short but if the additional external battery really delivers 70% more range as claimed, it would be a great fit for what used to be my commute.
Matthias247 6y ago
Apart from the motor and a straight handlebar the bike pretty much fits into the gravel bike category, which is doing extremely well at the moment. Those are rather versatile bikes, which one can use for anything between commuting, bikepacking and not-fully-competitive road racing. At least the mid-range bikes in this category are already out of carbon. It's far more common than exocitic nowadays. The price of 4500$ actually doesn't feel too excessive, given that a Specialized Diverge with similar components is 3900$ (https://www.specialized.com/us/en/diverge-comp-carbon/p/175285 https://www.specialized.com/us/en/diverge-comp-carbon/p/1752...) - without a motor. But ok - Specialized is also one of the most expensive brands. I bought a gravel bike this year (Trek Checkpoint), and I'm very happy with it. If I would have a strong use-case for an e-bike - like a longer commute - I would definitely consider something like that Prolog.
ols 6y ago
It feels like you are not really following the trends in bike designs. Carbon frames are really common now, and are available in mid-range road, mountain or gravel bikes. You can even order one on AliExpress for cheap and build a decent road bike around it. And it’s not only the weight that carbon frame bike owners are after - the material gives much better ride quality than aluminium. Deep rims are nothing spectacular either, their weight penalty is nicely offset by aero gains, and this effect is noticable even at non-pro speeds. With disc brakes there is less concern about the longevity of the carbon rim - so why not use it? One chainring is all the rage in bikes now - since the advent of super-wide casettes with multiple cogs (reaching 13!) there is no real need to add a front deralieur. It’s a component that breaks down frequently, multiple chainrings weight a lot, the chain wears down more… The recent popularity of 1x11 or 1x12 drives is very well-deserved. Mudguards and simple handlebars make this bike utilitarian and well-suited to commuting, while the other stuff is a collection of things that are common and highly praised by cyclists nowadays.
- kwaugh 6y ago
  I mean no offense, but many of the advantages that you've cited are more of claimed advantages from the marketing departments of big manufacturer rather than proven advantages that the tech gives you. The author of the comment to which you replied does seem to understand the trends in bike designs these days and feels that these trends do not fit well into the market segment of e-bikes. I agree. > it’s not only the weight that carbon frame bike owners are after - the material gives much better ride quality than aluminium. The affect the frame has on the ride quality is significantly smaller than other components of the ride like the tires and seat post[0]. Carbon often has a very small weight improvement over a well made steel or aluminum bikes, so if you're buying an e-bike because you want pedal assist, I don't understand the need to shave 1 or 2 pounds off the bike. > Deep rims are nothing spectacular either, their weight penalty is nicely offset by aero gain. This appears to be true. Most of the aero penalty of the bike comes from the wheels and having deeper wheels does reduce the drag a lot. > One chainring is all the rage in bikes now It is all the rage, but it's not clear yet whether it's justified or just a ploy by the manufacturers to save costs on their end. The gear ratio of this bike goes from 1.0 on the low end to only 3.64. 1.0 is pretty good for going up hills, especially with the motor assist, but 3.64 is really low, especially for a bike trying to tout itself as really fast! I don't understand this choice. Most road bikes have a top end ratio of around 4.54. > Mudguards and simple handlebars make this bike utilitarian and well-suited to commuting The mudguards are nice, but I don't understand the choice of handlebars. Why do you want a super aero light-weight bike but then put flat handlebars on it so you can't get in an aero position like you can with drop handlebars. This doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the bike doesn't have mounting points for a front or rear rack, which is a huge downside for commuting, if not a dealbreaker. [0] https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/ https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-mor... [edit] you're right that trends do matter when affecting people's purchasing decision since most people aren't very informed about the actual pros/cons of the tech they're buying, but this doesn't undermine the original commenter's opinion that this bike doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint.
multjoy 6y ago
> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive Uh, no?
twblalock 6y ago
When I used to commute via bicycle and also lived on the second floor of an apartment building that could only be accessed by stairs, weight mattered to me quite a bit. Nobody wants to carry a heavy bike up and down a staircase twice a day.
satvikpendem 6y ago
It's a lighter ebike than other ebikes, what's hard to understand about that? It's not to be compared to regular bikes, but other ebikes, because the property of being an ebike is the primary purpose, and anything is auxiliary. In this case, commuters want lightness in their bike so that they need to carry less and the bike range is higher (F = ma, where one wants to reduce mass).
mperham 6y ago
Do you know how many people commute to work in a Porsche 911? Same crowd.
woah 6y ago
Why is it crazy that someone would spend $4500 on something they commute with every day? I mean, it might cost that much just to upgrade the seats and the stereo in a car.
microtherion 6y ago
Lots of hobbies (I want to say male hobbies, but presumably there are female examples as well) attract people buying equipment that cannot be objectively justified by the skill level of the practitioners buying it: The proverbial titanium head drivers in golf, fancy mics, amps, and instruments in music, tricked out hiking gear, etc. This might be an increasing phenomenon in advanced middle age, as we have more money and less time to invest in our hobbies. Signed, a guy who just bought a laser cutter today...
- paulrd 6y ago
  Darn, I have a laser cutter for sale very cheap - let me know if you ever want / need another one.
- 7952 6y ago
  Hiking gear can be remarkably impractical for most people most of the time. Backpacks that are not even waterproof without a cover. Boots that are heavy and "supportive" but mostly just increase fatigue. Top opening backpacks that have to be unloaded to get at something. And weird shapes that reduce the effective volume. Clothing that is too light for cold weather without a "base" and "shell".
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Coming from conventional bikes, I don't understand who this is for. People who want an ebike and have a good chunk of disposable income and are willing to pay (a lot) more to have the best experience on a bike. The weight and integrated lights and non-shitty look are particularly nice next to the typical ebike offering. > Suffice it to say, you'd rarely see a commuter using a carbon bike. The first thing I thought about seeing this bike is how great it would be for commuting. I live in a rainy city and work on the second floor. I've carried my fairly light non-ebike up to the second floor about 200 times and it's still no fun. Pulling a bulky ebike of those stairs is a hard no. Likewise, I know a lot of apartment dwellers who have to carry their bike up to the second floor. Plus, in general older people. Lifting a 35 pound eBike onto your bike rack is a non-starter. A lot of my older friends who bought ebikes also bought newer lower bike racks because of the weight. This bike isn't a general use-case bike for certain, but it's got a lot of appeal in my eyes. Doubt I'll buy one (an e MTB is way higher on my list!), but if I was looking to replace my commuter bike it would be up there.
- drcode 6y ago
  It would seem foolhardy to lug a crazy-expensive, fragile carbon fiber bike up a stairwell on a regular basis. It would be easy to damage it that way.
  - aey 6y ago
    A lot easier to lug my 16lb road carbon bike up and down stairs then a 30lb commuter
  - stan_rogers 6y ago
    And if you don't, it quickly becomes someone else's bike. That's just the way the world works now. Given that you need to lug the bike around anyway, your choice is now down to the 26-pound version or the 35+-pound version.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > It would seem foolhardy to lug a crazy-expensive, fragile carbon fiber bike up a stairwell on a regular basis. It would be easy to damage it that way. Spending $4500 on a bike that would be my daily driver is cheap compared to the car it's displacing. Not sure where you got your intel about the durability of modern carbon fiber frames, but it would be just fine.
gregkerzhner 6y ago
What’s wrong with the new 1x gearing? It’s pretty standard these days in mountain and gravel bikes. As long as the back cassette has a varied range you don’t lose too much gearing while getting the benefit of a simpler drive train, less maintenance and lower weight.
medium_burrito 6y ago
Have you seen the market for bikes nowadays? All the mid 50s and 60s men I know spend at least $5k on bikes, and own several, and change them out. As less young people bike, the market has shifted entirely to the high end. I don't get it either though- if I wanted a moped, I'd just buy a Vespa.
crispyambulance 6y ago
You're right about all the contradictions with this bike. It doesn't make any sense from either a utilitarian or sport point of view. But fancy carbon bikes have a robust market with 40-somethings who like to ride and have significant disposable income, it's the market that "Rapha" is going for. This bike is for a similar market which perhaps isn't quite able to get aero anymore but would still like something sporty that will help them up a hill, I guess.
- reportingsjr 6y ago
  You're spot on. I made this same comment elsewhere. There is a large market for this age group that isn't being tapped by bike makers. It's a shame, because biking is an incredible way for people to stay very fit and healthy.
comeondude 6y ago
Cause it’s fun
nl 6y ago
> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involved, often professional or semi-pro cyclists whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves This isn't true. Most $1000+ road bikes have carbon frames. Wholesale, a good quality no-nme Al frame is about $100, while an equivalent quality CF frame is about $250. If you are using Shimano 105 or above level quality, a CF frame is a reasonable upgrade. They do ride better than anything but the best Al frames since that can put more stiffness where required and less where bump absorbing is needed. The rest of your comments just shows misunderstanding of the luxury market. BMWs sell when Toyota makes fine cars.
onetimemanytime 6y ago
This is for millions of people who don't blink at spending $4500, like an average person spending $15. It has all the right buzzwords and "LeMond" name in it so let's make some money. Most will probably use it once and let is collect dust.
fossuser 6y ago
I live in the Bay Area on the peninsula - I could easily name ten coworkers that have carbon bikes and usually more than one. They also often commute on them. They’re expensive, but the market exists (at least here). Ride portola loop or old La Honda on any given day and you’ll probably pass 100k worth of bikes.
- ch33zer 6y ago
  Those people aren't going to be riding an e-bike, and if they are they won't be riding one with flat handlebars.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    At least one does, but yeah I’m not sure how much that audience intersects. I’ve also seen fancy specialized brand bikes with internal motors that give out an extra 250w of power. I suspected they were for older people that want to keep up on rides. Main thing I was pointing out was that carbon bikes aren’t just for super athletes, they’re common where I live.
jerome-jh 6y ago
That makes an e-bike that is also fun to pedal with no assistance. It is a combined commuter and weekend bike and I think there is a market for it. Although I would not buy it, only the wheel upgrade at 1800e looks overpriced to me.
cycomanic 6y ago
You're making several incorrect assertion. First while carbon frames are largely marketed at the expensive high performance crowd they are not very expensive to make (for example the production costs of top of the line specialized or trek frames which sell for 3000-5000 USD for the frame only, have cost including shipping to the US of approximately 300 USD). Second every professional cyclistbis always limited by their physical abilities, compared to many other sports, material has very little impact on the performance of pro cyclists. Mind you they still take that 1% gain because it can make all the difference between a win and a place in the top 10. There are also significant amount of carbon commuter bikes around by other companies so this is nothing new. Particularly the prices of e bikes are significantly due to the motor etc.
titzer 6y ago
You completely misunderstood what this bike is for. It's for making as money for the bike designer, manufacturer, and reseller as possible. As such, it targets a market of people who have a lot of money and want to buy status symbols, the latest gadget, or virtue-signal some green thing or other. These people are highly unlikely to be pro cyclists or highly steeped in gear knowledge. It's about profit, pure and simple.
AtlasBarfed 6y ago
RE: single crank Monocranks are a new trend with the 11 speed cogs, and electric assist will effectively flatten things so you don't need as many lower gears.
Decker87 6y ago
I agree with the general point you make, but carbon fiber bikes aren't that crazy expensive. I bought one for $1k 5 years ago and I love it, even though I don't do any racing or anything like that.

robert_foss 6y ago

> A lightweight carbon frame weighed down by a battery. My thoughts exactly. Who's the target audience? And at that price point?

jeffbee 6y ago
The price point is comparable to the Specialized Turbo Vado 5 SL, a third-generation e-bike from another American company. The weight savings can make a big difference when you have to carry your bike up stairs or bring it on a train. Keep in mind that e-bikes compete with cars.
- robert_foss 6y ago
  Maybe you're right. The Specialized Turbo Vado 5 SL seems to be 14.6kg, and this bike 11.8kg. If they're otherwise comparable maybe this bike actually makes some sense.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Both are lighter than most. Many e-bikes are over 50 pounds, sometimes way over. The Rad Runner is 75 pounds, the Strommer ST3 is 72 pounds, etc.

benmanns 6y ago

I have an older ebike with a large battery and it is outrageously heavy and hard to handle for everything except the actual ride. Perhaps there’s a market for people who want an ebike that’s a little easier to get up apartment stairs? For riding I don’t see a need.

ebg13 6y ago
> Perhaps there’s a market for people who want an ebike that’s a little easier to get up apartment stairs? A detachable battery might also help with this.
- ianhowson 6y ago
  Or an aluminum frame that can deal with being banged around a little.
  - frenchy 6y ago
    Your partner might not like what that does to the apartment walls.
    - ianhowson 6y ago
      If my partner leaves, there's more room for bikes!
- pletnes 6y ago
  The battery on my bike is perhaps 2 kg with the bike in total perhaps 26 ish. Removing the battery does not help except for hosing down a dirty bike or preventing theft of the battery.
- boomskats 6y ago
  In Europe a lot of the Bosch/Yamaha bikes have the so-called 'walk mode', where you hold down a button and the bike powers itself up whatever slope at walking pace. For some reason I understand this mode is illegal in the US, but it makes all the difference over here - especially when going up stairs (or other 45 degree slopes).

nroets 6y ago

I agree with you entirely, BUT Isn't this how Tesla started ? A sportscar with subpar performance and impractical for many journeys due to limited range and charging options.

notatoad 6y ago
yes, but this is not the bicycle equivalent of a sports car. to put this bike in car terms, it's like if somebody tried to market a "Michael Shumacher signature edition" of the toyota corolla, and the only difference from the normal model was to swap out the steel body panels for carbon fibre ones. this isn't a racing bike, it's a boring old commuter made with good quality but completely normal components, a few fancy materials in visible places and a famous cyclist's name attached to it.

andor 6y ago

Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive That's not necessarily true. Most carbon frames are expensive because they are high-end models, not because of the material itself. I would be worried about durability though, if this is used like other commuter bikes. Carbon frames usually come warnings to not lean them against sharp objects, not sit on the top tube, etc. Unlike metals, the fibers are only strong in one direction. Anyone bumping into this bike by accident, e.g. when locking it against the same rack, might cause damage to the frame.

chrisbennet 6y ago
As a data point, my 2006 (carbon frame) Ibis Mojo mountain bike has seen quite a few crashes (in the woods) without sustaining any real damage. Maybe mountain bikes are less delicate?
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  There's almost certainly more margin built in to a mountain bike frame, but carbon fiber has a scary failure mode compared to metals no matter what- it appears absolutely fine until catastrophic delamination.

vwoolf 6y ago

All of what you say is true, and it's stupid expensive but also aesthetically incredible and super light. I'd buy one if I had stupid money to throw away. I don't, so I won't, but the appeal is there.

phamilton 6y ago

It's for the wealthy cyclist who is slowing down but still wants to ride with their crew. I know a few guys like that, mostly for mountain biking, but they also buy them for their wives so they can go for a ride together.

pletnes 6y ago

We have 1 car and 2 electric bikes rather than 2 cars. If you can reduce your car count, anything is worth it, give or take.

unethical_ban 6y ago

>A lightweight carbon frame weighed down by a battery. That's the entire point! To make an electric bike that weighs the same as a conventional bike. My aluminum frame road bike weighs about 23-24lbs, so having a 45-mile-range ebike weigh about the same is really cool. And just like any emerging market, no, it isn't meant to be for the masses day 1, just as the Model S wasn't. This is iterative.

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cranekam 6y ago

I agree with the overall sentiment — who is this for? — but: > carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involved, often professional or semi-pro cyclists whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves. just isn't true. Many hobbyist/amateur/weekend warrior-type cyclist ride carbon bikes. They can be had at lowish prices (my first was £1000) to multiples of the price of this Lemond ebike. Almost all owners of such bikes are limited by their own ability, not the bike. It's probably fair to assume a lightweight, high quality ebike would be pricey. Perhaps being carbon adds a bit more to the price but the material choice alone isn't totally ridiculous. > High-performance rims and tyres but only one chain ring. Single-ring setups with a wide-range rear cassette are actually a pretty good choice for a commuter bike. Less maintenance, less weight. A double chainring setup likely offers smaller gaps between gears but likely a comparable overall range from lowest to highest. On a commuter bike simplicity wins. I guess ultimately this bike is some combination of publicity stunt and Veblen good. I can't imagine Lemond anticipates selling many of them.

kwaugh 6y ago
> A double chainring setup likely offers smaller gaps between gears but likely a comparable overall range from lowest to highest. This isn't true. This bike is using a 40 gear crank in the front with an 11-40 cassette in the back. That puts the gear ratio at 1.0 on the low end and 3.64 on the high end. The corresponding Shimano GRX setup with a double chainring would be a 46-30 in the front and a 11-34 in the back. This gives a 0.88 ratio on the low end and 4.18 on the high end, which is actually quite a big difference. One could argue that the difference in gear ratio on the low end isn't a big deal because this bike has pedal assist, but the difference on the high end is quite noticeable.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Only if you're in a hurry.
- wiredfool 6y ago
  No one (basically) is going to care about the difference between a 46/11 and a 40/11 when the assist drops out at 25kph. If anything, you’re much more likely to be able to use the 40/11. At the other end, the assist is going to cover a lot of gearing, and it’s going to make the gaps in a 1x setup a lot less important. (FWIW, I ride a 1x42/11-42 and a 2x 50/34-11/32. And a triple on the tandem, and I lived with a cx geared 1x 39-12/28 for a few years. High gears are drastically overrated unless you’re racing)

portlander52232 6y ago

You can buy a carbon bike at any mainstream bike shop, they aren’t just for pros anymore. I ride one because it feels amazingly sporty. I’m an enthusiast but not very athletic. The super light, stiff bike is just fun to ride. The aero features like integrate stem and bars is mostly found on time-trial and triathlon bikes. In contrast you can get conventional road bikes, gravel bikes, and mountain bikes in carbon at any nice bike shop.

johnofthesea 6y ago
And if you buy directly from brands that do not sell through local shops (like Dare or Canyon) it can be even cheaper. I commute on my carbon frame bike and use steel one only in winter now.

semi-extrinsic 6y ago

> whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves I'm a fluid dynamics researcher, and I'll tell you the money these people spend on "aero" and "weight saving" and "higher drivetrain efficiency" stuff is 99.9% snake oil. Unless you are among the top 1000 road bike racers in the world. Increasing your exercise load by half an hour per week, or spending a little time understanding and implementing aerodynamically efficient body posture or other forms of technique, will both yield improvements that are several orders of magnitude higher than the marginal improvements achieved by spending $$$ on "aero" and carbon fiber. I've seen detailed calculations of rider performance that indicate a 500 g saving in frame weight (which is huge), over the course of a 120 km race with 1200 m climb, will save you a whopping total of 15 seconds on ~4 hours of race time.

masklinn 6y ago
> I'm a fluid dynamics researcher, and I'll tell you the money these people spend on "aero" and "weight saving" and "higher drivetrain efficiency" stuff is 99.9% snake oil. Unless you are among the top 1000 road bike racers in the world. So, biking audiophilia.
- tigen 6y ago
  At least weight saving is easily measurable and indisputable. Audiophilia focuses mostly on areas that are not so easily quantifiable.
  - darkerside 6y ago
    I've heard audiophilia derided as the practice of listening to the noise instead of the music, sand that was enough for me to get off the train and never think twice.
- locusm 6y ago
  Carbon frames are worth it for the damping factor alone if you ride for more than an hour a week IMHO.
6y ago

altarius 6y ago

Carbon fiber frames are now quite common in mountain biking and road biking, many enthusiasts (just quite average riders) buy them. I think this bike for wealthy commuters and city dwellers, could replace public transit or Uber rides. People seem to have taken up cycling in cities due to the risk of riding on public transit. And as someone else said, taking a 50+lbs (25kg) e-bike inside or even upstairs is a pain. But I think most of all, this is sort of a "halo" product - the best bike they could build, probably very expensive, but "sexy" and definitely news-worthy - as this HN submission has shown. And in the future they can launch cheaper alu-framed versions of this bike when this bike has established LeMond's e-bike reputation.

noir_lord 6y ago
I bought a full carbon felt road bike in 2013 (2012 model so heavily discounted) for 768 quid. That's expensive for an average bike but entirely in the range for an equivalent quality alu bike - Carbon fiber simply isn't that exotic anymore.

string 6y ago

Plenty of cyclists in central London have carbon fibre commuter bikes and wear lycra and cleats for a sub-20 mile ride, stopping traffic lights every 2 minutes. I don't think logic has much to do with how most people choose cycling gear.

deleted 6y ago
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PragmaticPulp 6y ago

E-bikes are perhaps the most misunderstood category of bike products right now. Traditional bikers have underestimated demand for e-bikes at every step of the way for one reason: Traditional biking has a massive selection bias effect that excludes anyone who isn’t in great physical shape. The deeper you are into cycling, the more homogenous your perception of what constitutes a biker. You’re not going to see average consumers at the top of 20-mile mountain bike trail with steep terrain at 7AM. You’re only going to see equally enthusiastic bikers who are highly trained and discipline. It leads to a stereotype that these are the only people who care to spend a lot of money on bikes. E-bikes turn that assumption upside down. They offset the physical fitness requirements and blow the doors wide open for anyone and everyone who wants to spend their way into the sport. Now those previously unreachable heights can be accessed by anyone with a credit card. It’s no longer just a niche hobby exclusive to those who can put years into building up their fitness and bike knowledge. The total addressable market of e-bikes is much greater than the total addressable market of conventional high end bikes for that reason. Ironically, this is creating a lot of animosity among traditional bikers. Previously, the most difficult uphill trails were lightly trafficked because only a select few could ride them. It was satisfying to be one of the few people at the top of a difficult trail at sunrise. Now, it’s not uncommon to be passed on the uphills by many people who are visibly out of shape, but use e-bikes to make up the difference (and then some). Some people are even hacking their e-bikes for more power or to allow power application without pedaling, turning them into electric dirt bikes that tear up trails. This is why we have so much regulation clamping down on e-bike access right now. Those regulations might be the biggest modulator in the size of the e-bike market.

throwaway1777 6y ago
Reminds me of when drones took off. Regulations took a while to catch up. At one point it was a huge nuisance with people flying little drones in every park. Fortunately now it’s died down with regulations and general knowledge of what’s acceptable, and I agree the same will happen with ebikes.
- hated 6y ago
  Did regulation reduce drone usage? Or just lack of interest?

davycro 6y ago

I commute on a specialized turbo vado sl, a similar lightweight e-bike. An electric bicycle this light will handle more like a conventional bicycle, and it’s easier to lift up steps or load onto bike racks. This bicycle looks less cartoonish than my specialized, weighs less, and costs about the same.

jdeibele 6y ago

I had read a long time ago that a typical 3x9 arrangement has fewer "real" gears than 27. One reason is that you're not supposed to heavily use the gears that are the most opposed because it causes additional chain wear. Another is that some of the gears calculate to the same gear/inch. https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cranks/how-many-gears-does-3x9-have-766680.html https://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-shifters-derailleurs-cran... has a nice summary, including a picture from Sheldon Brown's website. https://www.sheldonbrown.com/home.html https://www.sheldonbrown.com/home.html Basically, there are 21 or 15 usable gears depending on how you want to calculate things. Then add to the equation that this is an electric bike and a single ring with 9 cassette gears seems reasonable.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
This is really just tired old wisdom handed down from the days of wide inflexible chains. Modern 8-speed+ chains can cover the whole cassette with ease. Additional wear from the dreaded cross chaining is never going to be significant when the cogs already have profiled teeth. It's always funny to read the hand wringing from MTB riders about this when they don't even bat an eye at the horrible inefficiencies of 20psi fat tires.

bloat 6y ago

Carbon fibre bikes are very common in my circles, i.e. very amateur middle aged club cyclists. Nothing to do with professionals, semi or otherwise. Also see plenty of them when commuting in London.

bitcurious 6y ago

It’s not uncommon in the biggest urban markets to bring your bike indoors overnight. The ability to easily lift the bike and carry it upstairs or just pick it up so you don’t sully the carpet is important. Low weight isn’t just for speed.

xtqctz 6y ago
Exactly. Carrying at 50lb ebike up a three story walk up is a hassle, but 25lbs is relatively easy.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  Using carbon fiber is saving on the order of 1 or 2 lbs though, not 25.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    50 pounds is a full suspension eMTB. I think most commuters like this are in the 30-35 pound range. I wouldn't be surprised if the total savings from carbon fiber on this bike is 4+ pounds. They use carbon everywhere, frame fork, seat post, wheels, handlebars... even the fenders.

taude 6y ago

I'm waiting to buy into a sleak looking, sub 30 pound e-bike for commuting. I'll probably pay up to $3K for such a bike. There's advantages to having it be an e-bike over just buying a scooter or such, like storage, parking downtown, etc. so it'll be pretty easy for me to justify a budget for a bike, as long as it's nice. I don't really like the external gearing of this bike, and not sure it needs standard Di2 type of components for shifting and whatnot.... This bike looks about 10x better than almost every other e-bike I've seen, so far. I'm sure we're about to see a lot of improvement in the next couple years of e-bike styling and tech...

gameswithgo 6y ago

One chain ring is the new thing these days, with 11+ cog cassettes. Lack of aero shape probably facilitates putting the battery in there. Though they could do the handle bars and seat stays at least.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
1x is a cost reduction measure disguised as a "new thing". Same price - less components = more profit.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  I very much doubt that's true, as evidenced by cheaper bikes still sporting 3x chainrings. 1x is entirely about removing the front derailleur and all its associated complication. It's especially common in mountain bikes because they experience a lot more opportunity to break.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    That's what the bike industry wants people to believe so they have motivation to buy upgrades. 3x cranks weren't dropping like flies for 99.9% of users. Their MO is to always come up with what's going to be the latest new thing then use the media outlets to pump their idea to boost sales. Same thing is happening with the forced imposition of disc brakes on road bikes. Then it's going to be hookless rims that can only handle 75 psi max.
- gameswithgo 6y ago
  When I was racing last (cat 3) the cost was higher on road bikes! Don't know if it still is. It is still a preferable setup if you don't need the range of gearing if a double. Front derailleurs are are common point of failure and noise and you make it all go away. (with either the proper sort of front chainring or a clutched derailleur in the rear to make sure the chain stay son) Drop weight and improve aero a bit too.
- c0nsumer 6y ago

woah 6y ago

Ever carried a bike up some stairs???

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

Carbon frames aren't prohibitively expensive. Almost all of them are made in Taiwan or mainland China now and you can get cheap frames from the same factories that make the expensive ones. There was a time when carbon forks were expensive. They became commoditized 20 years ago. The same has happened now with the rest of the bike.

jjav 6y ago

> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive Back in the 90s, yes. Carbon frames are the mainstream now and have been for at least the last decade. > I don't understand who this is for I'd consider it if I was still commuting longer distances but covid put a stop to that. The range is a bit too short but if the additional external battery really delivers 70% more range as claimed, it would be a great fit for what used to be my commute.

Matthias247 6y ago

Apart from the motor and a straight handlebar the bike pretty much fits into the gravel bike category, which is doing extremely well at the moment. Those are rather versatile bikes, which one can use for anything between commuting, bikepacking and not-fully-competitive road racing. At least the mid-range bikes in this category are already out of carbon. It's far more common than exocitic nowadays. The price of 4500$ actually doesn't feel too excessive, given that a Specialized Diverge with similar components is 3900$ (https://www.specialized.com/us/en/diverge-comp-carbon/p/175285 https://www.specialized.com/us/en/diverge-comp-carbon/p/1752...) - without a motor. But ok - Specialized is also one of the most expensive brands. I bought a gravel bike this year (Trek Checkpoint), and I'm very happy with it. If I would have a strong use-case for an e-bike - like a longer commute - I would definitely consider something like that Prolog.

ols 6y ago

It feels like you are not really following the trends in bike designs. Carbon frames are really common now, and are available in mid-range road, mountain or gravel bikes. You can even order one on AliExpress for cheap and build a decent road bike around it. And it’s not only the weight that carbon frame bike owners are after - the material gives much better ride quality than aluminium. Deep rims are nothing spectacular either, their weight penalty is nicely offset by aero gains, and this effect is noticable even at non-pro speeds. With disc brakes there is less concern about the longevity of the carbon rim - so why not use it? One chainring is all the rage in bikes now - since the advent of super-wide casettes with multiple cogs (reaching 13!) there is no real need to add a front deralieur. It’s a component that breaks down frequently, multiple chainrings weight a lot, the chain wears down more… The recent popularity of 1x11 or 1x12 drives is very well-deserved. Mudguards and simple handlebars make this bike utilitarian and well-suited to commuting, while the other stuff is a collection of things that are common and highly praised by cyclists nowadays.

kwaugh 6y ago
I mean no offense, but many of the advantages that you've cited are more of claimed advantages from the marketing departments of big manufacturer rather than proven advantages that the tech gives you. The author of the comment to which you replied does seem to understand the trends in bike designs these days and feels that these trends do not fit well into the market segment of e-bikes. I agree. > it’s not only the weight that carbon frame bike owners are after - the material gives much better ride quality than aluminium. The affect the frame has on the ride quality is significantly smaller than other components of the ride like the tires and seat post[0]. Carbon often has a very small weight improvement over a well made steel or aluminum bikes, so if you're buying an e-bike because you want pedal assist, I don't understand the need to shave 1 or 2 pounds off the bike. > Deep rims are nothing spectacular either, their weight penalty is nicely offset by aero gain. This appears to be true. Most of the aero penalty of the bike comes from the wheels and having deeper wheels does reduce the drag a lot. > One chainring is all the rage in bikes now It is all the rage, but it's not clear yet whether it's justified or just a ploy by the manufacturers to save costs on their end. The gear ratio of this bike goes from 1.0 on the low end to only 3.64. 1.0 is pretty good for going up hills, especially with the motor assist, but 3.64 is really low, especially for a bike trying to tout itself as really fast! I don't understand this choice. Most road bikes have a top end ratio of around 4.54. > Mudguards and simple handlebars make this bike utilitarian and well-suited to commuting The mudguards are nice, but I don't understand the choice of handlebars. Why do you want a super aero light-weight bike but then put flat handlebars on it so you can't get in an aero position like you can with drop handlebars. This doesn't make sense. Furthermore, the bike doesn't have mounting points for a front or rear rack, which is a huge downside for commuting, if not a dealbreaker. [0] https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/ https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-mor... [edit] you're right that trends do matter when affecting people's purchasing decision since most people aren't very informed about the actual pros/cons of the tech they're buying, but this doesn't undermine the original commenter's opinion that this bike doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint.

multjoy 6y ago

> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive Uh, no?

twblalock 6y ago

When I used to commute via bicycle and also lived on the second floor of an apartment building that could only be accessed by stairs, weight mattered to me quite a bit. Nobody wants to carry a heavy bike up and down a staircase twice a day.

satvikpendem 6y ago

It's a lighter ebike than other ebikes, what's hard to understand about that? It's not to be compared to regular bikes, but other ebikes, because the property of being an ebike is the primary purpose, and anything is auxiliary. In this case, commuters want lightness in their bike so that they need to carry less and the bike range is higher (F = ma, where one wants to reduce mass).

mperham 6y ago

Do you know how many people commute to work in a Porsche 911? Same crowd.

woah 6y ago

Why is it crazy that someone would spend $4500 on something they commute with every day? I mean, it might cost that much just to upgrade the seats and the stereo in a car.

microtherion 6y ago

Lots of hobbies (I want to say male hobbies, but presumably there are female examples as well) attract people buying equipment that cannot be objectively justified by the skill level of the practitioners buying it: The proverbial titanium head drivers in golf, fancy mics, amps, and instruments in music, tricked out hiking gear, etc. This might be an increasing phenomenon in advanced middle age, as we have more money and less time to invest in our hobbies. Signed, a guy who just bought a laser cutter today...

paulrd 6y ago
Darn, I have a laser cutter for sale very cheap - let me know if you ever want / need another one.
7952 6y ago
Hiking gear can be remarkably impractical for most people most of the time. Backpacks that are not even waterproof without a cover. Boots that are heavy and "supportive" but mostly just increase fatigue. Top opening backpacks that have to be unloaded to get at something. And weird shapes that reduce the effective volume. Clothing that is too light for cold weather without a "base" and "shell".

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Coming from conventional bikes, I don't understand who this is for. People who want an ebike and have a good chunk of disposable income and are willing to pay (a lot) more to have the best experience on a bike. The weight and integrated lights and non-shitty look are particularly nice next to the typical ebike offering. > Suffice it to say, you'd rarely see a commuter using a carbon bike. The first thing I thought about seeing this bike is how great it would be for commuting. I live in a rainy city and work on the second floor. I've carried my fairly light non-ebike up to the second floor about 200 times and it's still no fun. Pulling a bulky ebike of those stairs is a hard no. Likewise, I know a lot of apartment dwellers who have to carry their bike up to the second floor. Plus, in general older people. Lifting a 35 pound eBike onto your bike rack is a non-starter. A lot of my older friends who bought ebikes also bought newer lower bike racks because of the weight. This bike isn't a general use-case bike for certain, but it's got a lot of appeal in my eyes. Doubt I'll buy one (an e MTB is way higher on my list!), but if I was looking to replace my commuter bike it would be up there.

drcode 6y ago
It would seem foolhardy to lug a crazy-expensive, fragile carbon fiber bike up a stairwell on a regular basis. It would be easy to damage it that way.
- aey 6y ago
  A lot easier to lug my 16lb road carbon bike up and down stairs then a 30lb commuter
- stan_rogers 6y ago
  And if you don't, it quickly becomes someone else's bike. That's just the way the world works now. Given that you need to lug the bike around anyway, your choice is now down to the 26-pound version or the 35+-pound version.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > It would seem foolhardy to lug a crazy-expensive, fragile carbon fiber bike up a stairwell on a regular basis. It would be easy to damage it that way. Spending $4500 on a bike that would be my daily driver is cheap compared to the car it's displacing. Not sure where you got your intel about the durability of modern carbon fiber frames, but it would be just fine.

gregkerzhner 6y ago

What’s wrong with the new 1x gearing? It’s pretty standard these days in mountain and gravel bikes. As long as the back cassette has a varied range you don’t lose too much gearing while getting the benefit of a simpler drive train, less maintenance and lower weight.

medium_burrito 6y ago

Have you seen the market for bikes nowadays? All the mid 50s and 60s men I know spend at least $5k on bikes, and own several, and change them out. As less young people bike, the market has shifted entirely to the high end. I don't get it either though- if I wanted a moped, I'd just buy a Vespa.

crispyambulance 6y ago

You're right about all the contradictions with this bike. It doesn't make any sense from either a utilitarian or sport point of view. But fancy carbon bikes have a robust market with 40-somethings who like to ride and have significant disposable income, it's the market that "Rapha" is going for. This bike is for a similar market which perhaps isn't quite able to get aero anymore but would still like something sporty that will help them up a hill, I guess.

reportingsjr 6y ago
You're spot on. I made this same comment elsewhere. There is a large market for this age group that isn't being tapped by bike makers. It's a shame, because biking is an incredible way for people to stay very fit and healthy.

comeondude 6y ago

Cause it’s fun

nl 6y ago

> Carbon fibre frames are prohibitively expensive and the market for them serves very involved, often professional or semi-pro cyclists whose performance bottlenecks are imposed by the bike instead of themselves This isn't true. Most $1000+ road bikes have carbon frames. Wholesale, a good quality no-nme Al frame is about $100, while an equivalent quality CF frame is about $250. If you are using Shimano 105 or above level quality, a CF frame is a reasonable upgrade. They do ride better than anything but the best Al frames since that can put more stiffness where required and less where bump absorbing is needed. The rest of your comments just shows misunderstanding of the luxury market. BMWs sell when Toyota makes fine cars.

onetimemanytime 6y ago

This is for millions of people who don't blink at spending $4500, like an average person spending $15. It has all the right buzzwords and "LeMond" name in it so let's make some money. Most will probably use it once and let is collect dust.

fossuser 6y ago

I live in the Bay Area on the peninsula - I could easily name ten coworkers that have carbon bikes and usually more than one. They also often commute on them. They’re expensive, but the market exists (at least here). Ride portola loop or old La Honda on any given day and you’ll probably pass 100k worth of bikes.

ch33zer 6y ago
Those people aren't going to be riding an e-bike, and if they are they won't be riding one with flat handlebars.
- fossuser 6y ago
  At least one does, but yeah I’m not sure how much that audience intersects. I’ve also seen fancy specialized brand bikes with internal motors that give out an extra 250w of power. I suspected they were for older people that want to keep up on rides. Main thing I was pointing out was that carbon bikes aren’t just for super athletes, they’re common where I live.

jerome-jh 6y ago

That makes an e-bike that is also fun to pedal with no assistance. It is a combined commuter and weekend bike and I think there is a market for it. Although I would not buy it, only the wheel upgrade at 1800e looks overpriced to me.

cycomanic 6y ago

You're making several incorrect assertion. First while carbon frames are largely marketed at the expensive high performance crowd they are not very expensive to make (for example the production costs of top of the line specialized or trek frames which sell for 3000-5000 USD for the frame only, have cost including shipping to the US of approximately 300 USD). Second every professional cyclistbis always limited by their physical abilities, compared to many other sports, material has very little impact on the performance of pro cyclists. Mind you they still take that 1% gain because it can make all the difference between a win and a place in the top 10. There are also significant amount of carbon commuter bikes around by other companies so this is nothing new. Particularly the prices of e bikes are significantly due to the motor etc.

titzer 6y ago

You completely misunderstood what this bike is for. It's for making as money for the bike designer, manufacturer, and reseller as possible. As such, it targets a market of people who have a lot of money and want to buy status symbols, the latest gadget, or virtue-signal some green thing or other. These people are highly unlikely to be pro cyclists or highly steeped in gear knowledge. It's about profit, pure and simple.

AtlasBarfed 6y ago

RE: single crank Monocranks are a new trend with the 11 speed cogs, and electric assist will effectively flatten things so you don't need as many lower gears.

Decker87 6y ago

I agree with the general point you make, but carbon fiber bikes aren't that crazy expensive. I bought one for $1k 5 years ago and I love it, even though I don't do any racing or anything like that.