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Departing senior engineer refuses to introduce replacements to OSS community

112 points by anotherhue 6y ago

jiveturkey 6y ago
> it's just code, after all I think I found the root cause problem here ... good on Gust.
- flqn 6y ago
  Yeah, that line made me wince too. It's not "just code" when there's a community of users and maintainers of the open-source project. Even if it were closed-source and developed internally, experience developing software is more than knowing the code.
h2odragon 6y ago
This is a wonderful story. Go Gust! I cannot imagine why a company that depends on an OSS project doesn't own and use their own fork of it. Give back and get back and all the benefits of OSS; but the company should have its own codebase and own responsibility for it, to prevent problems like this or the host of others that keep arising.
- heldrida 6y ago
  It'd be even worse if there were no external contributors. Currently, they can reach the contributors at least...
- wmf 6y ago
  The standard advice is that forking is a last resort if you can't upstream your contributions. Over the long term forking is usually more work than maintaining a good relationship with the project.
rsecora 6y ago
Gust was saving the company from some costs. Now, It seem the company is going to know the "Costs of intangibles" concept: Experience, trust, network are development multipliers.
cbanek 6y ago
This is a great story, told about Gust, with mucho gusto! There are so many underleveled people in organizations, and it's surprising how companies will shoot themselves in the foot over a few tens of thousands of dollars. And yet, not surprising.
- hhas01 6y ago
  Not surprising at all. Lots of companies like that: developers who only know how to develop, managers who only know how to manage, human resourcers who only know how to… resource. Lots of people who know the cost of everything and value of nothing. Bear in mind too that the average employee, regardless of rank, is more concerned about what’s in their own best interests than what’s in the company’s. It’s only when you’re a director and major shareholder that these are one and the same, and even then you’re not magically immune to making really stupid decisions. As for “Gust”, my sympathies are severely limited. He remained in a job where he knew his employers were taking the absolute piss out him long enough that he turned toxic himself. I get that changing jobs has its own set of costs and challenges, but thinking that your employer owes you for all your “loyalty” is a fool’s delusion. I’ve been in jobs where management’s been taking the piss while I’ve been burning out, and realizing that environment’s turning me toxic too I’ve walked.[1][2] After all, my first obligation is to me and my health, and I’m no use to anyone when I fail to look after that. Too often computer geeks have a self-inflicted martyr complex, but you try telling them that their own worst enemy is themselves… (And, hey, fight me if you think I’m wrong.) -- [1] After giving generous notice, mind, and tying up the work I’ve done there as best I can. After all, I see no need to burn bridges with others already digging perfectly good holes for themselves. Besides, as an employee I know that it’s their work, not mine; so why should I get myself emotionally twisted up in work I don’t own when even its owners don’t care that much? [2] (Including that time when I was the management. I don’t stand my own shite either.)
  - user5994461 6y ago
    >>> the average employee, regardless of rank, is more concerned about what’s in their own best interests than what’s in the company’s. It’s only when you’re a director and major shareholder that these are one and the same Lol here. Directors got where they are by caring about themselves and/or by staying long enough that all superiors went away leaving the position vacant. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the interests of the company.
hyperman1 6y ago
Got to love the stats on the asker. 360 Points and 7 badges, all for asking how to continue an abusive relations. Yay for gamification
scarmig 6y ago
Perhaps I'm too cynical now, but to me this post reads as a troll trying to get a rise out of people.
- ericbarrett 6y ago
  It couldn’t have been more precisely tuned to generate outrage, I agree. And yet I’ve seen almost exactly this situation play out before. In my case it was a storage company who didn’t appreciate the senior engineer who worked with all the SAN providers. Whoops!
  - selestify 6y ago
    For every fake story, there’s a real one out there that’s spiritually equivalent.
    - andrewflnr 6y ago
      This is dangerously close to the "but isn't it crazy that I could have believed it?" fallacy or, more broadly, justifying making up stories to push an agenda because it's "spiritually equivalent" to a real one. Please don't. Truth still matters.
      - selestify 6y ago
        That’s fair. I think the morals of such stories are still worth considering, though. Or is there harm in such moralistic stories that I’m missing?
        andrewflnr 6y ago
        They're fine if they're explicitly tagged as fables rather than facts.
    - hhas01 6y ago
      Oh, you have to go down that rabbithole. https://notalwaysright.com/engineering-a-problem/61642/ https://notalwaysright.com/engineering-a-problem/61642/ Trust in notalwaysright.com/all to suck up even more of your life than the orange site already does. Also, clientsfromhell.net and askamanager.org. And I’m certain the Daily WTF, Acts of Gord, and BOFH need zero introduction here. Good luck in trying to distinguish if it’s day or night—never mind what’s true or false—by the time you’re done with that little lot!
g42gregory 6y ago
This is just my personal opinion, but maybe this is what Karma looks like?
raverbashing 6y ago
I disagree a bit with how this was answered there, mainly: - Some people think relationships with OSS teams are just about asking for "free support" which couldn't be further from the truth. Rather, it has to be built and it involves more giving than asking - If Gust vented about his relationship, it was certainly not in an email/mailing list setting, and still I consider this a "maybe if" not a certain if. It depends on the personal relationship he had with the maintainers.
Yaa101 6y ago
To be honest, if they screwed me as they did Gust, I probably would have arson-ed the whole office, not only did they screw him, they also claim to have a right to steal his buddies code? This is one of the good examples why the US has a trust problem among all it's inhabitants, constantly getting screwed by anybody, especially by the companies. Sad mentality, really...
jbjbjbjb 6y ago
If this were a sales team they’d be expecting the guy to take his Rolodex. Unfortunately many developers seem to treat themselves and their peers as commodities.
bnkamalesh 6y ago
Asking a developer community how to follow up after screwing up a developer! That ought to be ironically funny. I think I can relate with Gust more, than the company

112 points by anotherhue 6y ago

jiveturkey 6y ago

> it's just code, after all I think I found the root cause problem here ... good on Gust.

flqn 6y ago
Yeah, that line made me wince too. It's not "just code" when there's a community of users and maintainers of the open-source project. Even if it were closed-source and developed internally, experience developing software is more than knowing the code.

h2odragon 6y ago

This is a wonderful story. Go Gust! I cannot imagine why a company that depends on an OSS project doesn't own and use their own fork of it. Give back and get back and all the benefits of OSS; but the company should have its own codebase and own responsibility for it, to prevent problems like this or the host of others that keep arising.

heldrida 6y ago
It'd be even worse if there were no external contributors. Currently, they can reach the contributors at least...
wmf 6y ago
The standard advice is that forking is a last resort if you can't upstream your contributions. Over the long term forking is usually more work than maintaining a good relationship with the project.

rsecora 6y ago

Gust was saving the company from some costs. Now, It seem the company is going to know the "Costs of intangibles" concept: Experience, trust, network are development multipliers.

cbanek 6y ago

This is a great story, told about Gust, with mucho gusto! There are so many underleveled people in organizations, and it's surprising how companies will shoot themselves in the foot over a few tens of thousands of dollars. And yet, not surprising.

hhas01 6y ago
Not surprising at all. Lots of companies like that: developers who only know how to develop, managers who only know how to manage, human resourcers who only know how to… resource. Lots of people who know the cost of everything and value of nothing. Bear in mind too that the average employee, regardless of rank, is more concerned about what’s in their own best interests than what’s in the company’s. It’s only when you’re a director and major shareholder that these are one and the same, and even then you’re not magically immune to making really stupid decisions. As for “Gust”, my sympathies are severely limited. He remained in a job where he knew his employers were taking the absolute piss out him long enough that he turned toxic himself. I get that changing jobs has its own set of costs and challenges, but thinking that your employer owes you for all your “loyalty” is a fool’s delusion. I’ve been in jobs where management’s been taking the piss while I’ve been burning out, and realizing that environment’s turning me toxic too I’ve walked.[1][2] After all, my first obligation is to me and my health, and I’m no use to anyone when I fail to look after that. Too often computer geeks have a self-inflicted martyr complex, but you try telling them that their own worst enemy is themselves… (And, hey, fight me if you think I’m wrong.) -- [1] After giving generous notice, mind, and tying up the work I’ve done there as best I can. After all, I see no need to burn bridges with others already digging perfectly good holes for themselves. Besides, as an employee I know that it’s their work, not mine; so why should I get myself emotionally twisted up in work I don’t own when even its owners don’t care that much? [2] (Including that time when I was the management. I don’t stand my own shite either.)
- user5994461 6y ago
  >>> the average employee, regardless of rank, is more concerned about what’s in their own best interests than what’s in the company’s. It’s only when you’re a director and major shareholder that these are one and the same Lol here. Directors got where they are by caring about themselves and/or by staying long enough that all superiors went away leaving the position vacant. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the interests of the company.

hyperman1 6y ago

Got to love the stats on the asker. 360 Points and 7 badges, all for asking how to continue an abusive relations. Yay for gamification

scarmig 6y ago

Perhaps I'm too cynical now, but to me this post reads as a troll trying to get a rise out of people.

ericbarrett 6y ago
It couldn’t have been more precisely tuned to generate outrage, I agree. And yet I’ve seen almost exactly this situation play out before. In my case it was a storage company who didn’t appreciate the senior engineer who worked with all the SAN providers. Whoops!
- selestify 6y ago
  For every fake story, there’s a real one out there that’s spiritually equivalent.
  - andrewflnr 6y ago
    This is dangerously close to the "but isn't it crazy that I could have believed it?" fallacy or, more broadly, justifying making up stories to push an agenda because it's "spiritually equivalent" to a real one. Please don't. Truth still matters.
    - selestify 6y ago
      That’s fair. I think the morals of such stories are still worth considering, though. Or is there harm in such moralistic stories that I’m missing?
      - andrewflnr 6y ago
        They're fine if they're explicitly tagged as fables rather than facts.
  - hhas01 6y ago
    Oh, you have to go down that rabbithole. https://notalwaysright.com/engineering-a-problem/61642/ https://notalwaysright.com/engineering-a-problem/61642/ Trust in notalwaysright.com/all to suck up even more of your life than the orange site already does. Also, clientsfromhell.net and askamanager.org. And I’m certain the Daily WTF, Acts of Gord, and BOFH need zero introduction here. Good luck in trying to distinguish if it’s day or night—never mind what’s true or false—by the time you’re done with that little lot!

g42gregory 6y ago

This is just my personal opinion, but maybe this is what Karma looks like?

raverbashing 6y ago

I disagree a bit with how this was answered there, mainly: - Some people think relationships with OSS teams are just about asking for "free support" which couldn't be further from the truth. Rather, it has to be built and it involves more giving than asking - If Gust vented about his relationship, it was certainly not in an email/mailing list setting, and still I consider this a "maybe if" not a certain if. It depends on the personal relationship he had with the maintainers.

Yaa101 6y ago

To be honest, if they screwed me as they did Gust, I probably would have arson-ed the whole office, not only did they screw him, they also claim to have a right to steal his buddies code? This is one of the good examples why the US has a trust problem among all it's inhabitants, constantly getting screwed by anybody, especially by the companies. Sad mentality, really...

jbjbjbjb 6y ago

If this were a sales team they’d be expecting the guy to take his Rolodex. Unfortunately many developers seem to treat themselves and their peers as commodities.

bnkamalesh 6y ago

Asking a developer community how to follow up after screwing up a developer! That ought to be ironically funny. I think I can relate with Gust more, than the company