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I don't have a clue what any solution looks like or even what problem is trying to be solved. Growing up in the USA home "ownership" is always touted as an inv

I don't have a clue what any solution looks like or even what problem is trying to be solved. Growing up in the USA home "ownership" is always touted as an investment but for example in Japan, it's often more like buying a car. The moment you buy it it's a used house and the price goes down just like a car would. The point being home ownership is viewed differently. Also, the recent episode of the Flash Forward podcast pondered the idea of guaranteed housing. They complained that 60% of people on minimum wage can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment in the USA but coming from Tokyo my first thought was "why is the standard a 2 bedroom apartment?" There are 100s of thousands of studio apartments all around Tokyo and it's normal to live in one. From $400 a month and up. I'm sure Hong Kong it's even more normal.

mettamage 6y ago
Wait, so does that mean it's relatively cheap to rent or buy in Japan? I know Japan is not a cheap country, but I was wondering relative to other Western countries. I might want to research if I'd want to live in Japan for a couple of years then, and simply become a remote worker.
- cammikebrown 6y ago
  Although Tokyo ranks among the most expensive real estate markets, I’d argue it’s comparable to many mid-size American cities, and deals can often be found on the cheap side, whereas the US has seen the floor on rental prices skyrocket in the last decade. Places tend to be much smaller in Tokyo, but you can still find a studio for well under $1,000/month, which is not really possible where I live (Portland, OR). A studio in Shinjuku, one of the most central and popular wards, can be had for ~$1,000/month. https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-tokyo-in-2019/ https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-t...
- bane 6y ago
  I would highly recommend watching the youtube channel "life where I'm from". He's a Canadian from Vancouver who lives in Japan with his family and makes some of the best documentary style films on topics about Japan anywhere. He has quite a few videos on housing at various levels, and a great series on homelessness in Japan (including cheap housing alternatives). Sharehouses are also relatively common in Tokyo and tend to attract young single people and expats. They're basically dorms with a central kitchen and bathroom and quality varies tremendously. But you can live for hundreds of dollars per month ($500-700) pretty easily (once you learn about all the weird fees that sorta only exist in the Tokyo housing market) and be about 35 minutes from a downtown hub area. Seoul also has similar cheap housing options. An entire market exists for ultra tiny "study rooms" (goshiwons) that are not much more than a bed, desk and bathroom and might run around $250/mo. Seoul also has Share houses and very small single room apartments that can be amazingly cheap per month if you don't mind paying a large (refundable) deposit up front -- for example, a $10k deposit might find you a decent sizes 2 bedroom 30 minutes from downtown on the subway for $500-600/mo. Both cities of course have Airbnbs which can be surprisingly reasonable and long-term stays are available. 1 - https://www.youtube.com/c/LifeWhereImFrom/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/LifeWhereImFrom/videos
- silverpepsi 6y ago
  no it means that the fortune you pay is almost all for the land and the house is thought of as disposable
- greggman3 6y ago
  Japan can be extremely cheap. (Well, it's all relative) Downtown Tokyo, like Aoyama or Roppongi are expensive, just like Upper West Side Manhattan is expensive. Move out to Saitama/Chiba/Kanagawa (20-30 minute commute to downtown tokyo) and it gets cheap (3bed room apartment for $1000) Even in Tokyo just shortly out it can get cheap quick. I have friends living in Sangenjaya (2 train stops from Shibuya) and paying $1500 for 3bedroom apartment. Friends living in Kyoto have huge places for the price but again it depends on where. Popular areas are expensive. So, I'm pretty sure Japan and Tokyo in particular are cheaper than NYC, LA, SF, Paris, and London. Still, likely your place will be smaller than you're used to. What makes it expensive for most foreigners is they don't speak the language and they don't know the area so their options are super limited to the expensive options targeting foreigners. You'll likely want to live downtown, and close to a station, both of which will jack up the cost.
alex_anglin 6y ago
One important difference to note in your Japan comparison is that Japan is experiencing population decline, which would explain weak demand and decreasing prices. Home ownership as an investment in North America has been driven by demand exceeding supply, among other factors, which make a difference from an investment perspective.
- corey_moncure 6y ago
  This is incorrect. Many of the factors that make the Japan real estate market what it is are codified into law. Furthermore the qualities attested to by the grandparent post are invariant with the current demographic trends, and have existed for a very long time. Long story short, Japan real estate is weird and unique, not a good subject for off the cuff generalizations.
  - alex_anglin 6y ago
    I would agree with you that real estate is inherently local, with a myriad factors to consider. I would also agree with you about the limitations of generalizations. However, in a conversation about the price of housing, discussing supply and demand seems like a good place to start.
  - digianarchist 6y ago
    Japans housing regulations are also made at the national level rather than the local level which reduces Nimbyism.
chefkoch 6y ago
> They complained that 60% of people on minimum wage can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment in the USA but coming from Tokyo my first thought was "why is the standard a 2 bedroom apartment?" Perhabs to have a second bedroom for kids?
- ghaff 6y ago
  Even leaving aside kids, even decades ago when I rented, I really liked having a separate office. Also guest bedroom, hobby room, etc. Even as a single person I appreciated having a two bedroom apartment.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    If everyone, minimum wage and white collar alike, is bidding for housing in the same, limited market, it hardy seems surprising that “housing with more/extra rooms” might be bid out of reach of those least able to pay. I don’t see people arguing why you shouldn’t want extra bedrooms so much as lamenting that some can’t afford two of them.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      I admittedly read the upthread comment as "Why on earth do people want/feel they need two bedroom apartments?" in the same vein as I am sometimes tempted to go "Why?" with respect to huge mansions.
- kube-system 6y ago
  I don't think the person you are replying to is actually confused about what someone would do with more space, but instead, making a point about cultural standards.
dredmorbius 6y ago
Real estate is the new pension. With the virtual elimination of defined-benefit pesions, and inadequacy of Social Security, it's the combination of asset-based securities --- 401k (or equivalent) defined-contribution plans, and real estate, which most middle-class Americans rely on for retirement. (Those below this level are simply out of luck.) So long as assets continue inflating, this works --- as an investment. But housing cannot be both aa good investment and affordable. https://cityobservatory.org/housing-cant-be-affordable_and_be-a-good-investment/ https://cityobservatory.org/housing-cant-be-affordable_and_b...
souprock 6y ago
What is going on is the implied idea that minimum wage is normal, or that minimum wage supports a family. It's neither. When minimum wage is low, it is how teenagers get some spending money and some employment references. When minimum wage is high, it's the cause of hidden lower-wage illegal employment that ignores worker safety regulations. The traditional norm for the USA is a 3-bedroom house. This provides a room for parents, a room for boys, and a room for girls. It isn't expected to be affordable on the minimum wage, and people would promptly bid the prices up if it were.

mettamage 6y ago

Wait, so does that mean it's relatively cheap to rent or buy in Japan? I know Japan is not a cheap country, but I was wondering relative to other Western countries. I might want to research if I'd want to live in Japan for a couple of years then, and simply become a remote worker.

cammikebrown 6y ago
Although Tokyo ranks among the most expensive real estate markets, I’d argue it’s comparable to many mid-size American cities, and deals can often be found on the cheap side, whereas the US has seen the floor on rental prices skyrocket in the last decade. Places tend to be much smaller in Tokyo, but you can still find a studio for well under $1,000/month, which is not really possible where I live (Portland, OR). A studio in Shinjuku, one of the most central and popular wards, can be had for ~$1,000/month. https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-tokyo-in-2019/ https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-t...
bane 6y ago
I would highly recommend watching the youtube channel "life where I'm from". He's a Canadian from Vancouver who lives in Japan with his family and makes some of the best documentary style films on topics about Japan anywhere. He has quite a few videos on housing at various levels, and a great series on homelessness in Japan (including cheap housing alternatives). Sharehouses are also relatively common in Tokyo and tend to attract young single people and expats. They're basically dorms with a central kitchen and bathroom and quality varies tremendously. But you can live for hundreds of dollars per month ($500-700) pretty easily (once you learn about all the weird fees that sorta only exist in the Tokyo housing market) and be about 35 minutes from a downtown hub area. Seoul also has similar cheap housing options. An entire market exists for ultra tiny "study rooms" (goshiwons) that are not much more than a bed, desk and bathroom and might run around $250/mo. Seoul also has Share houses and very small single room apartments that can be amazingly cheap per month if you don't mind paying a large (refundable) deposit up front -- for example, a $10k deposit might find you a decent sizes 2 bedroom 30 minutes from downtown on the subway for $500-600/mo. Both cities of course have Airbnbs which can be surprisingly reasonable and long-term stays are available. 1 - https://www.youtube.com/c/LifeWhereImFrom/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/LifeWhereImFrom/videos
silverpepsi 6y ago
no it means that the fortune you pay is almost all for the land and the house is thought of as disposable
greggman3 6y ago
Japan can be extremely cheap. (Well, it's all relative) Downtown Tokyo, like Aoyama or Roppongi are expensive, just like Upper West Side Manhattan is expensive. Move out to Saitama/Chiba/Kanagawa (20-30 minute commute to downtown tokyo) and it gets cheap (3bed room apartment for $1000) Even in Tokyo just shortly out it can get cheap quick. I have friends living in Sangenjaya (2 train stops from Shibuya) and paying $1500 for 3bedroom apartment. Friends living in Kyoto have huge places for the price but again it depends on where. Popular areas are expensive. So, I'm pretty sure Japan and Tokyo in particular are cheaper than NYC, LA, SF, Paris, and London. Still, likely your place will be smaller than you're used to. What makes it expensive for most foreigners is they don't speak the language and they don't know the area so their options are super limited to the expensive options targeting foreigners. You'll likely want to live downtown, and close to a station, both of which will jack up the cost.

alex_anglin 6y ago

One important difference to note in your Japan comparison is that Japan is experiencing population decline, which would explain weak demand and decreasing prices. Home ownership as an investment in North America has been driven by demand exceeding supply, among other factors, which make a difference from an investment perspective.

corey_moncure 6y ago
This is incorrect. Many of the factors that make the Japan real estate market what it is are codified into law. Furthermore the qualities attested to by the grandparent post are invariant with the current demographic trends, and have existed for a very long time. Long story short, Japan real estate is weird and unique, not a good subject for off the cuff generalizations.
- alex_anglin 6y ago
  I would agree with you that real estate is inherently local, with a myriad factors to consider. I would also agree with you about the limitations of generalizations. However, in a conversation about the price of housing, discussing supply and demand seems like a good place to start.
- digianarchist 6y ago
  Japans housing regulations are also made at the national level rather than the local level which reduces Nimbyism.

chefkoch 6y ago

> They complained that 60% of people on minimum wage can't afford a 2 bedroom apartment in the USA but coming from Tokyo my first thought was "why is the standard a 2 bedroom apartment?" Perhabs to have a second bedroom for kids?

ghaff 6y ago
Even leaving aside kids, even decades ago when I rented, I really liked having a separate office. Also guest bedroom, hobby room, etc. Even as a single person I appreciated having a two bedroom apartment.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  If everyone, minimum wage and white collar alike, is bidding for housing in the same, limited market, it hardy seems surprising that “housing with more/extra rooms” might be bid out of reach of those least able to pay. I don’t see people arguing why you shouldn’t want extra bedrooms so much as lamenting that some can’t afford two of them.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I admittedly read the upthread comment as "Why on earth do people want/feel they need two bedroom apartments?" in the same vein as I am sometimes tempted to go "Why?" with respect to huge mansions.
kube-system 6y ago
I don't think the person you are replying to is actually confused about what someone would do with more space, but instead, making a point about cultural standards.

dredmorbius 6y ago

Real estate is the new pension. With the virtual elimination of defined-benefit pesions, and inadequacy of Social Security, it's the combination of asset-based securities --- 401k (or equivalent) defined-contribution plans, and real estate, which most middle-class Americans rely on for retirement. (Those below this level are simply out of luck.) So long as assets continue inflating, this works --- as an investment. But housing cannot be both aa good investment and affordable. https://cityobservatory.org/housing-cant-be-affordable_and_be-a-good-investment/ https://cityobservatory.org/housing-cant-be-affordable_and_b...

souprock 6y ago

What is going on is the implied idea that minimum wage is normal, or that minimum wage supports a family. It's neither. When minimum wage is low, it is how teenagers get some spending money and some employment references. When minimum wage is high, it's the cause of hidden lower-wage illegal employment that ignores worker safety regulations. The traditional norm for the USA is a 3-bedroom house. This provides a room for parents, a room for boys, and a room for girls. It isn't expected to be affordable on the minimum wage, and people would promptly bid the prices up if it were.