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Hydrogen starts to make sense when we have 200% overproduction of solar/wind energy. Assuming energy is essentially free Methane synthesis would be a more viab

Hydrogen starts to make sense when we have 200% overproduction of solar/wind energy. Assuming energy is essentially free Methane synthesis would be a more viable option IMHO.

hinkley 6y ago
I was shocked to learn that natural gas pipelines are more efficient than high tension power lines. Near natural gas infrastructure you may well be right.
- Hypx 6y ago
  Conductive metals have resistance, so they must lose a portion of their energy as heat. A pipeline only has to overcome friction on the inner surface of the pipe, which is easily reduced by having a wider pipe. So this isn't a surprise. Hydrogen pipes will have the same benefits, albeit you will want a wider pipe due to the lower density.
  - JulianMorrison 6y ago
    Hydrogen has problems of leaking out, and damaging materials, in both cases because very small molecules can easily insert themselves where they don't belong.
    - Hypx 6y ago
      This is close to becoming a FUD argument. Hydrogen does not leak out of properly designed pipes and containers in appreciable quantities. Embrittlement doesn't not happen either except for specific cases or where an incorrect alloy was used. These are mostly solved problems in modern times.
      - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
        If you have hundreds or thousands of miles of pipes installed by third-party contractors, the existence of improperly designed pipes, incorrect alloys, and corner cutting becomes virtually inevitable.
      - jonstewart 6y ago
        I don’t know about such things, so have a well-intentioned question: are these problems solvable at scale at reasonable cost? One hears about pipeline leaks frequently, and hundred+ mile long pipelines seem like a hard thing to construct with rigorous precision.
        Hypx 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport Hydrogen pipelines exist and for the most part work as intended. There are straightforward ways of avoiding the main problems. AFAIK, these are cost effective solutions.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - gambiting 6y ago
        Last time I was at university we stored hydrogen in pure lead bottles(70kg bottle for just 1L of hydrogen!) and it would leak all of it naturally over about 4-6 weeks. And the bottles had to be replaced every now and then because hydrogen makes them brittle while permeating through them. Has that changed? Do we now have some exotic materials that can hold it better than pure lead?
        Hypx 6y ago
        Carbon fiber? That's what cars like the Toyota Mirai are storing it in.
        hinkley 6y ago
        The NASA planned replacement for the space shuttle had a bunch of setbacks, but what killed it was the carbon fiber cryo tanks delaminating. They couldn’t solve the problem fast enough and it all got shitcanned. Has that been solved now? The Mirai can have a low pressure tank, fed from a much larger, higher pressure tank at the fuel station. That tank and the delivery systems for it are separate problems that also have to be solved at scale. “At scale” is the problem that public policy has to wrestle with. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you can do it for everybody.
        Hypx 6y ago
        That was in the 1990s. Not to mention they were trying to build a non-cylindrical tank which made things significantly harder.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      Every couple of years everyone forgets what a pain in the butt it is to control pure hydrogen. There should be a write up somewhere that people can link to instead of having to explain it all again to a new crowd. You could even link all of the research and research opportunities into ways of mitigating those problems, which would just make the point all the better. When you solve those n problems we can talk about whether you can solve them at a price point that makes commercial hydrogen viable. Until then we can use it for space ships, which by design spend their entire life outdoors and far away from any structure or worker that isn’t there to directly or indirectly support the fuel delivery system, and is nowhere near civilians.
  - rswskg 6y ago
    However super conducting pipelines don't. Crack cheap superconducting materials and you've got 20% more electricity back.
raverbashing 6y ago
Outside of peak times, that might be a reality sooner than expected. Wind doesn't stop blowing and it might be argued that it is stronger at night. Solar peak does not match the consumption peak neither.
revax 6y ago
More like 300% as electricity -> hydrogen -> electricity is around 35% efficient IIRC
tcbawo 6y ago
People used to think that productivity advances would lead to a 10 hour work week. I worry that overproduction of energy will be effectively impossible. Without some profit motive, extra energy would be likely be diverted to cryptocurrency schemes and the like.
Qwertious 6y ago
Methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2, and a major part of emissions from existing gas turbines is small amounts of methane leaking before it's burnt. So, even if the methane is derived from captured atmospheric carbon, it still wouldn't be carbon neutral.

Hydrogen starts to make sense when we have 200% overproduction of solar/wind energy. Assuming energy is essentially free Methane synthesis would be a more viable option IMHO.

hinkley 6y ago

I was shocked to learn that natural gas pipelines are more efficient than high tension power lines. Near natural gas infrastructure you may well be right.

Hypx 6y ago
Conductive metals have resistance, so they must lose a portion of their energy as heat. A pipeline only has to overcome friction on the inner surface of the pipe, which is easily reduced by having a wider pipe. So this isn't a surprise. Hydrogen pipes will have the same benefits, albeit you will want a wider pipe due to the lower density.
- JulianMorrison 6y ago
  Hydrogen has problems of leaking out, and damaging materials, in both cases because very small molecules can easily insert themselves where they don't belong.
  - Hypx 6y ago
    This is close to becoming a FUD argument. Hydrogen does not leak out of properly designed pipes and containers in appreciable quantities. Embrittlement doesn't not happen either except for specific cases or where an incorrect alloy was used. These are mostly solved problems in modern times.
    - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
      If you have hundreds or thousands of miles of pipes installed by third-party contractors, the existence of improperly designed pipes, incorrect alloys, and corner cutting becomes virtually inevitable.
    - jonstewart 6y ago
      I don’t know about such things, so have a well-intentioned question: are these problems solvable at scale at reasonable cost? One hears about pipeline leaks frequently, and hundred+ mile long pipelines seem like a hard thing to construct with rigorous precision.
      - Hypx 6y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_pipeline_transport Hydrogen pipelines exist and for the most part work as intended. There are straightforward ways of avoiding the main problems. AFAIK, these are cost effective solutions.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - gambiting 6y ago
      Last time I was at university we stored hydrogen in pure lead bottles(70kg bottle for just 1L of hydrogen!) and it would leak all of it naturally over about 4-6 weeks. And the bottles had to be replaced every now and then because hydrogen makes them brittle while permeating through them. Has that changed? Do we now have some exotic materials that can hold it better than pure lead?
      - Hypx 6y ago
        Carbon fiber? That's what cars like the Toyota Mirai are storing it in.
        hinkley 6y ago
        The NASA planned replacement for the space shuttle had a bunch of setbacks, but what killed it was the carbon fiber cryo tanks delaminating. They couldn’t solve the problem fast enough and it all got shitcanned. Has that been solved now? The Mirai can have a low pressure tank, fed from a much larger, higher pressure tank at the fuel station. That tank and the delivery systems for it are separate problems that also have to be solved at scale. “At scale” is the problem that public policy has to wrestle with. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you can do it for everybody.
        Hypx 6y ago
        That was in the 1990s. Not to mention they were trying to build a non-cylindrical tank which made things significantly harder.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Every couple of years everyone forgets what a pain in the butt it is to control pure hydrogen. There should be a write up somewhere that people can link to instead of having to explain it all again to a new crowd. You could even link all of the research and research opportunities into ways of mitigating those problems, which would just make the point all the better. When you solve those n problems we can talk about whether you can solve them at a price point that makes commercial hydrogen viable. Until then we can use it for space ships, which by design spend their entire life outdoors and far away from any structure or worker that isn’t there to directly or indirectly support the fuel delivery system, and is nowhere near civilians.
- rswskg 6y ago
  However super conducting pipelines don't. Crack cheap superconducting materials and you've got 20% more electricity back.

raverbashing 6y ago

Outside of peak times, that might be a reality sooner than expected. Wind doesn't stop blowing and it might be argued that it is stronger at night. Solar peak does not match the consumption peak neither.

revax 6y ago

More like 300% as electricity -> hydrogen -> electricity is around 35% efficient IIRC

tcbawo 6y ago

People used to think that productivity advances would lead to a 10 hour work week. I worry that overproduction of energy will be effectively impossible. Without some profit motive, extra energy would be likely be diverted to cryptocurrency schemes and the like.

Qwertious 6y ago

Methane is a far worse greenhouse gas than CO2, and a major part of emissions from existing gas turbines is small amounts of methane leaking before it's burnt. So, even if the methane is derived from captured atmospheric carbon, it still wouldn't be carbon neutral.