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Puzzled by this. France is exactly the country most people would think of an an example of the effectiveness of collective bargaining and unionisation for short

Puzzled by this. France is exactly the country most people would think of an an example of the effectiveness of collective bargaining and unionisation for shorter working hours and better working conditions (and maybe the Nordics too). Check out the hours worked per worker, for one. Working hours per year are a lot shorter and French people enjoy much greater leisure time and quality of life as a consequence.

laurent92 6y ago
And are « poorer » than in US. It’s only recently that French people started enjoying frequent worldwide travels, whereas it has been affordable for Americans for several decades. We also have smaller houses (90sqm in average vs 140sqm in USA, but also our interiors are generally less renovated, and anyone with a kitchen that would be average in USA, looks like an aristocrat here). It is quasi-impossible to be paid 140k$ in France. We get less money for less work, it is entirely proportional, the difference is, it was collectively bargained. But we don’t have « more » than in USA.
- jacobush 6y ago
  What about health care?
  - vladvasiliu 6y ago
    I wonder if this isn't a question of who bears the responsibility. For example, in the US you make more money but are expected to save, and make sure you have something to fall on in case of difficult times. In France, you expect the state to take care of you in such a situation. Spoiler alert: depending on the state is not a good situation. Some people may therefore prefer to be able to spend all they've got without having to think of hard times. Because they may think "it won't happen to me" / "I'll save tomorrow". As such, I would be very curious to see some actual numbers to be able to do as objective a comparison as possible. Because indeed, if in the US the prices are overall higher relative to the wages, the deal might not be as good in a bad situation. From France, this doesn't seem to be the case, mostly because (outside of SF) pretty much everything looks cheaper. Housing, food, entertainment, cars / gas, electronics, etc. The only issue seems to be related to healthcare. So I'd like to have that actually quantified. The issue in France is that in addition to the fact that "having a 140k salary is impossible", taxation is very, very high. If an employer pays 100k in total for an employee, the actual, cash in hand, after income, social security and medical insurance (1) for the employee is around 55-60k. Once said employee has his 60k in hand, practically everything has a 20% VAT [2]. Oh, and since this is France, you also have taxes on taxes. For example, VAT is levied on some taxes related to electricity. So out of a 100k USD total paid by the company, how much would a US employee have in hand after tax? I've also noticed that for similar positions in the US (outside of SV) a software engineer can expect twice the salary compared to Paris. And mind, Paris is very expensive for the basics (food and housing). It would be interesting to see how this compares to professions other than IT. In France, you're mostly barely above minimum wage for blue collar jobs. And minimum wage is nation-wide, the same in Paris and in some village in the middle of nowhere. [1] Only "basic" health care is actually "free". If you need anything more "advanced", such as dental work or glasses, you better have a "mutuelle", which is basically private insurance. This is usually provided by the employer, but what is actually covered varies. [2] Food, "necessities" and some other items have a lower VAT, 5.5% I think. There's also a 10% VAT for restaurants in some cases.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    Workers pay for the medicare in Europe, it's a collective (and compulsory) insurance. You also have to work to qualify in most of the countries (unless you're disabled etc). In America you often talk about the mysterious billionaires that shall pay it (Sanders etc) but in reality is that in these so called model countries its literally a workers tax paid by employees.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Most Americans have health insurance. Of the ones that don’t: 1/3 are illegal immigrants. Those folks would be excluded from the universal healthcare system of nearly every EU country. France and Spain are the exceptions, but France is under a lot of pressure to scrap that. 1/3 are eligible for Medicaid but haven’t signed up. 1/3 can afford Obamacare premiums but choose not to buy insurance. The Obamacare premiums are capped at 9.5% of income. That’s about the same as the employee-side healthcare tax would be in France or other countries with universal healthcare.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      "Have health insurance" is not comparable with "is covered by universal health care" without a lot of clarification. 1. It's dependent on employment. 2. It comes with various forms of limits, out of pocket payments, and other caveats. 3. It comes with a profit motive for the insurance company to decline coverage. etc So fundamentally, "Am I under the threat of financial ruin if I were to get ill?" is still very much alive even with health insurance.
      - tptacek 6y ago
        All health care systems regardless of payer structure have a financial motive to decline coverage.
        jahaja 6y ago
        Yes, but vastly different. Universal health care certainly won't come with a dozen pages of fine-print. It doesn't have pricing levels either. You won't hear: "Oh, you should've chosen our premium plan for that!".
        tptacek 6y ago
        That's true. The tradeoffs are different. There will be procedures you can't readily get, and more complexity in getting others. Some of those are procedures you shouldn't be getting in the first place. You'll have far less control over your own care, but most people weren't taking advantage of that control in the first place.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The less fortunate in the USA are poorer than less fortunate in France. There is no weeks of holiday, there is no 1 year of parental leave, and much higher job stability in the US. Many might have a higher nominal income in the US, but the floor is much higher in France.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    The crossover point is roughly at the 40th percentile. Which explains why the American system is politically stable.
    - JamesBarney 6y ago
      Which is about 35,000 per year for an individual if anyone is curious.
- djrobstep 6y ago
  Choosing leisure over a larger McMansion isn't being "poorer". What is the point of having an advanced economy if you don't use it to make people's lives easier, fix poverty, and provide decent public services and pleasant public spaces?
- yorwba 6y ago
  > It is quasi-impossible to be paid 140k$ in France. It is also essentially impossible to be paid less than ≈$22k (minimum wage of 18 473 € annually [1] at current exchange rates). Collective bargaining helps those who'd have a hard time bargaining individually, not top earners for whom frequent international travel appears perfectly affordable. (40% of Americans have never left the country, apparently. [2]) [1] https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300#tab3866937930157792808-cas1 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300#t... [2] https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2020/11/07/survey-percentage-of-americans-whove-never-flown-traveled-outside-their-birth-state-owned-luggage-more/ https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2020/11/07/survey-percentage-...
  - caballeto 6y ago
    It is absolutely possible to be not paid at all. The minimum wage law mandates salary ~$22k, but the real minimum wage is always zero. Many businesses will decide to hire less instead of hiring employees for higher rates than free market could propose. Hence the differences in unemployment levels among youth especially: ~20% in France, ~9% in US.
- gen220 6y ago
  I have a friend who lives in Paris as a hotel worker. He was able to take two weeks off to visit his girlfriend in NYC and enjoy his time here. It wasn’t a huge event he had to save up for. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe there is no universe where an American worker could do the reverse (fly to Paris for two weeks to enjoy themselves, without needing to plan it for years). The point is, the basement standard of life in France is not close to the basement standards of the US.
  - aborsy 6y ago
    The issue is your friend might have 45 days of vacations but perhaps not enough funds to spend in vacation. In France high skill jobs pay 35k. Also, your friend is one of those lucky ones having a job: these nice policies typically come at a cost to others, in this case a high unemployment rate and a dual job market protecting those in the system. These are well known features of a rigid unionized labor laws.
- amaccuish 6y ago
  Ahh yes, the USA. That nation well-known for travelling abroad...
mytailorisrich 6y ago
In France like in other countries like, e.g., the UK, what played the most important role is that people simply voted for a left-leaning government that enacted these laws. The lowering of working hours and new paid leaves in 1936 where enacted by the newly elected left-wing government. The lowering of working hours to 35h per week in France was also voted by a left-leaning government. Healthcare systems in France and the UK were also setup by left-leaning governments. Collective action may work within a single company but if your after general social measures then the action is to be taken at the polling station. In France unions in private companies are very weak these days, and overall the protections and rights of employees are extensive so people no longer have strong needs for this, anyway. The key point is that in a democratic country things happen if the majority wants it and votes accordingly.

laurent92 6y ago

And are « poorer » than in US. It’s only recently that French people started enjoying frequent worldwide travels, whereas it has been affordable for Americans for several decades. We also have smaller houses (90sqm in average vs 140sqm in USA, but also our interiors are generally less renovated, and anyone with a kitchen that would be average in USA, looks like an aristocrat here). It is quasi-impossible to be paid 140k$ in France. We get less money for less work, it is entirely proportional, the difference is, it was collectively bargained. But we don’t have « more » than in USA.

jacobush 6y ago
What about health care?
- vladvasiliu 6y ago
  I wonder if this isn't a question of who bears the responsibility. For example, in the US you make more money but are expected to save, and make sure you have something to fall on in case of difficult times. In France, you expect the state to take care of you in such a situation. Spoiler alert: depending on the state is not a good situation. Some people may therefore prefer to be able to spend all they've got without having to think of hard times. Because they may think "it won't happen to me" / "I'll save tomorrow". As such, I would be very curious to see some actual numbers to be able to do as objective a comparison as possible. Because indeed, if in the US the prices are overall higher relative to the wages, the deal might not be as good in a bad situation. From France, this doesn't seem to be the case, mostly because (outside of SF) pretty much everything looks cheaper. Housing, food, entertainment, cars / gas, electronics, etc. The only issue seems to be related to healthcare. So I'd like to have that actually quantified. The issue in France is that in addition to the fact that "having a 140k salary is impossible", taxation is very, very high. If an employer pays 100k in total for an employee, the actual, cash in hand, after income, social security and medical insurance (1) for the employee is around 55-60k. Once said employee has his 60k in hand, practically everything has a 20% VAT [2]. Oh, and since this is France, you also have taxes on taxes. For example, VAT is levied on some taxes related to electricity. So out of a 100k USD total paid by the company, how much would a US employee have in hand after tax? I've also noticed that for similar positions in the US (outside of SV) a software engineer can expect twice the salary compared to Paris. And mind, Paris is very expensive for the basics (food and housing). It would be interesting to see how this compares to professions other than IT. In France, you're mostly barely above minimum wage for blue collar jobs. And minimum wage is nation-wide, the same in Paris and in some village in the middle of nowhere. [1] Only "basic" health care is actually "free". If you need anything more "advanced", such as dental work or glasses, you better have a "mutuelle", which is basically private insurance. This is usually provided by the employer, but what is actually covered varies. [2] Food, "necessities" and some other items have a lower VAT, 5.5% I think. There's also a 10% VAT for restaurants in some cases.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  Workers pay for the medicare in Europe, it's a collective (and compulsory) insurance. You also have to work to qualify in most of the countries (unless you're disabled etc). In America you often talk about the mysterious billionaires that shall pay it (Sanders etc) but in reality is that in these so called model countries its literally a workers tax paid by employees.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Most Americans have health insurance. Of the ones that don’t: 1/3 are illegal immigrants. Those folks would be excluded from the universal healthcare system of nearly every EU country. France and Spain are the exceptions, but France is under a lot of pressure to scrap that. 1/3 are eligible for Medicaid but haven’t signed up. 1/3 can afford Obamacare premiums but choose not to buy insurance. The Obamacare premiums are capped at 9.5% of income. That’s about the same as the employee-side healthcare tax would be in France or other countries with universal healthcare.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    "Have health insurance" is not comparable with "is covered by universal health care" without a lot of clarification. 1. It's dependent on employment. 2. It comes with various forms of limits, out of pocket payments, and other caveats. 3. It comes with a profit motive for the insurance company to decline coverage. etc So fundamentally, "Am I under the threat of financial ruin if I were to get ill?" is still very much alive even with health insurance.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      All health care systems regardless of payer structure have a financial motive to decline coverage.
      - jahaja 6y ago
        Yes, but vastly different. Universal health care certainly won't come with a dozen pages of fine-print. It doesn't have pricing levels either. You won't hear: "Oh, you should've chosen our premium plan for that!".
        tptacek 6y ago
        That's true. The tradeoffs are different. There will be procedures you can't readily get, and more complexity in getting others. Some of those are procedures you shouldn't be getting in the first place. You'll have far less control over your own care, but most people weren't taking advantage of that control in the first place.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
The less fortunate in the USA are poorer than less fortunate in France. There is no weeks of holiday, there is no 1 year of parental leave, and much higher job stability in the US. Many might have a higher nominal income in the US, but the floor is much higher in France.
- rayiner 6y ago
  The crossover point is roughly at the 40th percentile. Which explains why the American system is politically stable.
  - JamesBarney 6y ago
    Which is about 35,000 per year for an individual if anyone is curious.
djrobstep 6y ago
Choosing leisure over a larger McMansion isn't being "poorer". What is the point of having an advanced economy if you don't use it to make people's lives easier, fix poverty, and provide decent public services and pleasant public spaces?
yorwba 6y ago
> It is quasi-impossible to be paid 140k$ in France. It is also essentially impossible to be paid less than ≈$22k (minimum wage of 18 473 € annually [1] at current exchange rates). Collective bargaining helps those who'd have a hard time bargaining individually, not top earners for whom frequent international travel appears perfectly affordable. (40% of Americans have never left the country, apparently. [2]) [1] https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300#tab3866937930157792808-cas1 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2300#t... [2] https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2020/11/07/survey-percentage-of-americans-whove-never-flown-traveled-outside-their-birth-state-owned-luggage-more/ https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2020/11/07/survey-percentage-...
- caballeto 6y ago
  It is absolutely possible to be not paid at all. The minimum wage law mandates salary ~$22k, but the real minimum wage is always zero. Many businesses will decide to hire less instead of hiring employees for higher rates than free market could propose. Hence the differences in unemployment levels among youth especially: ~20% in France, ~9% in US.
gen220 6y ago
I have a friend who lives in Paris as a hotel worker. He was able to take two weeks off to visit his girlfriend in NYC and enjoy his time here. It wasn’t a huge event he had to save up for. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe there is no universe where an American worker could do the reverse (fly to Paris for two weeks to enjoy themselves, without needing to plan it for years). The point is, the basement standard of life in France is not close to the basement standards of the US.
- aborsy 6y ago
  The issue is your friend might have 45 days of vacations but perhaps not enough funds to spend in vacation. In France high skill jobs pay 35k. Also, your friend is one of those lucky ones having a job: these nice policies typically come at a cost to others, in this case a high unemployment rate and a dual job market protecting those in the system. These are well known features of a rigid unionized labor laws.
amaccuish 6y ago
Ahh yes, the USA. That nation well-known for travelling abroad...

mytailorisrich 6y ago

In France like in other countries like, e.g., the UK, what played the most important role is that people simply voted for a left-leaning government that enacted these laws. The lowering of working hours and new paid leaves in 1936 where enacted by the newly elected left-wing government. The lowering of working hours to 35h per week in France was also voted by a left-leaning government. Healthcare systems in France and the UK were also setup by left-leaning governments. Collective action may work within a single company but if your after general social measures then the action is to be taken at the polling station. In France unions in private companies are very weak these days, and overall the protections and rights of employees are extensive so people no longer have strong needs for this, anyway. The key point is that in a democratic country things happen if the majority wants it and votes accordingly.