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not trying to stir up a shitstorm, but since this article mentions IQ tests - "what's a nickel?"... Check out the history (1971) of Larry P. and California's u

not trying to stir up a shitstorm, but since this article mentions IQ tests - "what's a nickel?"... Check out the history (1971) of Larry P. and California's use of IQ testing in schools. > As a group, African Americans across the country scored lower on IQ tests. The lawsuit alleged that was because the tests were biased toward Eurocentric culture. Questions like, ”Who wrote Romeo and Juliet,” they argued, didn’t assess a student’s innate capacity to learn. It tested knowledge that some – and not others — had acquired at home or school. https://www.kqed.org/news/11781032/a-landmark-lawsuit-aimed-to-fix-special-ed-for-californias-black-students-it-didnt https://www.kqed.org/news/11781032/a-landmark-lawsuit-aimed-... and from Radiolab: > What is the color of rubies? > Kaufman argued “Uh that question is clearly biased.” I mean, the correct answer on the test is rubies are red but A... > If your family has more money, you were more likely to know what was a ruby was > And B, Kaufman says, Ruby was a popular name in the Black community. So certain kids might think the question was referring to people, not gems. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/g-problem-space https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/g-pro... and in general, further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_public_policy#US_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_public_policy... edit: add year to Larry P.

artichokes 6y ago
Those aren't anything like the sort of questions involved in IQ tests. IQ tests rarely involve words at all, usually a series of geometric shapes where you're supposed to pick the next one.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- yorwba 6y ago
  Not in 1971 when the lawsuit was filed. Now they use picture-based tests because those are supposedly less dependent on learned knowledge. (Though I find that many Raven's progressive matrices-type questions are a lot easier if you know about symmetry groups and XOR.)
  - philshem 6y ago
    thanks for pointing out the year. I've updated my grandparent comment to include 1971
  - DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
    > Though I find that many Raven's progressive matrices-type questions are a lot easier if you know about symmetry groups and XOR. Yes, at that point people who have already developed certain mindware have an advantage, but arguably that's the point of an IQ test. You're not testing the potential of a person to eventually be really smart, you're testing for the current problem-solving potential.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Well, it is problem, because the assumption is that you're measuring a proxy for g that supposedly doesn't change. So if it can change, by something as simple as learning some boolean algebra, the IQ test isn't measuring what it is assumed to be measuring. That being said, you're right that it would still be useful for measuring problem solving potential, but that's explicitly not what IQ tests are supposed to measure.
      - andromeduck 6y ago
        ??? who assumes g can't change?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        It's generally accepted in psychometrics that general intelligence does not change in adulthood : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950413/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950413/ I personally think it's not something that's really true, but it's how I learned it in university and seems to be the default position of experts in the field. This is of course assuming no traumatic brain injuries or the use of psychoactive substances.
- throwaway936482 6y ago
  Depends on the test. There's been a move away from tests that require cultural or language specific knowledge and which instead rely on "which shape in the sequence comes next" type questions but they have their own set of problems in that they don't capture linguistic ability which is a part of intelligence, and are also useless for blind people. Earlier IQ tests required a lot of culturally specific knowledge, and were often quite up front about it because they considered the possession of such knowledge to be a marker of intelligence. Generally that viewpoint is out of fashion now so test makers try to come up with tests that measure "pure" Intelligence, whatever that means.
  - LudwigNagasena 6y ago
    Culturally specific knowledge obviously correlates with an ability to learn by the very definition of the ability to learn. I doubt this viewpoint is out of fashion. The problem is that it is hard to compare people from different environments if you use knowledge that depends on the environment...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - stonecharioteer 6y ago
    So does this mean Einstein's IQ was subjective? Was he supposedly smart because he had encountered things on the test before? Would he score lower on one today?
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  This is very wrong. Most complete IQ tests contain a lot more than just progressive matrices, because there is such a thing as verbal IQ that can't always be measured well by progressive matrices.
himinlomax 6y ago
Doesn't sound like IQ tests at all.
- edent 6y ago
  That's the point. They were never intended to objectively assess intelligence. They were designed to reinforce the dominant culture. Just like Google's tests do now.
  - eloox 6y ago
    I don't know much about the history of these tests. Can Hanlon's razor principle be applied here?
    - edent 6y ago
      No. Look up to so called "literacy tests" used to disenfranchise voters. The people who designed those tests, and the "IQ" tests knew exactly what they were doing.
      - mnw21cam 6y ago
        Similarly, https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 - the "Jewish Problems" that were extra-hard maths questions used to find an excuse to prevent certain students from getting into university.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    I don’t think reCAPTCHA was designed to reinforce American culture. I think it was simply designed to make ML training sets for their other projects, and they neglected to make it accessible.
logifail 6y ago
> Questions like [..] didn’t assess a student’s innate capacity to learn Back in the day, I did a boat-load of tests and passed a boat-load of exams at school and then university. I have a drawer full of certificates from (apparently) respected institutions to prove it. None of which are any use to me right now. I can't say that any of the tests or exams I sat actually assessed anything close to my "innate capacity to learn". Q: Is this just me?
- philshem 6y ago
  For immigration purposes, I've had to take (and pass) a German language test. I've taken so many tests in my life, over 25 years of "school", and I've learned how tests work and how to pass them, that I've made the joke that I could have passed the the written part of the test in any language where I could read the alphabet.
LudwigNagasena 6y ago
Are you saying that all modern psychometricians that develop modern IQ tests are a part of a secret racist cabal?

artichokes 6y ago

Those aren't anything like the sort of questions involved in IQ tests. IQ tests rarely involve words at all, usually a series of geometric shapes where you're supposed to pick the next one.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yorwba 6y ago
Not in 1971 when the lawsuit was filed. Now they use picture-based tests because those are supposedly less dependent on learned knowledge. (Though I find that many Raven's progressive matrices-type questions are a lot easier if you know about symmetry groups and XOR.)
- philshem 6y ago
  thanks for pointing out the year. I've updated my grandparent comment to include 1971
- DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
  > Though I find that many Raven's progressive matrices-type questions are a lot easier if you know about symmetry groups and XOR. Yes, at that point people who have already developed certain mindware have an advantage, but arguably that's the point of an IQ test. You're not testing the potential of a person to eventually be really smart, you're testing for the current problem-solving potential.
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Well, it is problem, because the assumption is that you're measuring a proxy for g that supposedly doesn't change. So if it can change, by something as simple as learning some boolean algebra, the IQ test isn't measuring what it is assumed to be measuring. That being said, you're right that it would still be useful for measuring problem solving potential, but that's explicitly not what IQ tests are supposed to measure.
    - andromeduck 6y ago
      ??? who assumes g can't change?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        It's generally accepted in psychometrics that general intelligence does not change in adulthood : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950413/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3950413/ I personally think it's not something that's really true, but it's how I learned it in university and seems to be the default position of experts in the field. This is of course assuming no traumatic brain injuries or the use of psychoactive substances.
throwaway936482 6y ago
Depends on the test. There's been a move away from tests that require cultural or language specific knowledge and which instead rely on "which shape in the sequence comes next" type questions but they have their own set of problems in that they don't capture linguistic ability which is a part of intelligence, and are also useless for blind people. Earlier IQ tests required a lot of culturally specific knowledge, and were often quite up front about it because they considered the possession of such knowledge to be a marker of intelligence. Generally that viewpoint is out of fashion now so test makers try to come up with tests that measure "pure" Intelligence, whatever that means.
- LudwigNagasena 6y ago
  Culturally specific knowledge obviously correlates with an ability to learn by the very definition of the ability to learn. I doubt this viewpoint is out of fashion. The problem is that it is hard to compare people from different environments if you use knowledge that depends on the environment...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- stonecharioteer 6y ago
  So does this mean Einstein's IQ was subjective? Was he supposedly smart because he had encountered things on the test before? Would he score lower on one today?
sudosysgen 6y ago
This is very wrong. Most complete IQ tests contain a lot more than just progressive matrices, because there is such a thing as verbal IQ that can't always be measured well by progressive matrices.

himinlomax 6y ago

Doesn't sound like IQ tests at all.

edent 6y ago
That's the point. They were never intended to objectively assess intelligence. They were designed to reinforce the dominant culture. Just like Google's tests do now.
- eloox 6y ago
  I don't know much about the history of these tests. Can Hanlon's razor principle be applied here?
  - edent 6y ago
    No. Look up to so called "literacy tests" used to disenfranchise voters. The people who designed those tests, and the "IQ" tests knew exactly what they were doing.
    - mnw21cam 6y ago
      Similarly, https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556 - the "Jewish Problems" that were extra-hard maths questions used to find an excuse to prevent certain students from getting into university.
- kube-system 6y ago
  I don’t think reCAPTCHA was designed to reinforce American culture. I think it was simply designed to make ML training sets for their other projects, and they neglected to make it accessible.

logifail 6y ago

> Questions like [..] didn’t assess a student’s innate capacity to learn Back in the day, I did a boat-load of tests and passed a boat-load of exams at school and then university. I have a drawer full of certificates from (apparently) respected institutions to prove it. None of which are any use to me right now. I can't say that any of the tests or exams I sat actually assessed anything close to my "innate capacity to learn". Q: Is this just me?

philshem 6y ago
For immigration purposes, I've had to take (and pass) a German language test. I've taken so many tests in my life, over 25 years of "school", and I've learned how tests work and how to pass them, that I've made the joke that I could have passed the the written part of the test in any language where I could read the alphabet.

LudwigNagasena 6y ago

Are you saying that all modern psychometricians that develop modern IQ tests are a part of a secret racist cabal?