4 ms·

In terms of security, thinking that your door lock will protect you is not a good strategy. There are many ways in which your door lock can be opened or broken.

by pqs 6y ago

In terms of security, thinking that your door lock will protect you is not a good strategy. There are many ways in which your door lock can be opened or broken. If it is a house, there are many other alternatives, like breaking through a window. I don't think that this smart lock, if well configured, makes you any more less secure.

leoedin 6y ago
If someone has to break a window to get in, you've got clear evidence of a break in. Insurance will be easier, the police will take you more seriously. It also deters casual thieves who might try the door. Sure, any lock is more deterrent than a fortress, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother.
FractalParadigm 6y ago
I think the difference the OP is pointing out is that, insurance can look at a broken door or a broken window and say "yep, this is where the person entered the property." Whereas they'll look at a home-built door lock that was hacked/bypassed and deny any claim, on the basis it "wasn't secure enough" - similar in vein to just leaving your front door unlocked, you won't get any sort of payout
- skohan 6y ago
  I think @pqs' point is a valid one though: circumventing a home lock by compromising a home automation system's security is surely a higher bar for thief to overcome than breaking through a window, so it's a bit funny for the former to be categorized as a failure on the part of the homeowner, while nobody is expecting everyone to install bulletproof metal shutters.
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    Sure, breaking a window is easier, but that triggers an alarm and arms the home defense system. If, OTOH, the thief subverts the home automation system, not only can they open the door and disable the cameras, they can instruct the system to pipe the anti-intruder knockout gas into the biolab/hackerspace where you are burning the midlight oil, working on your revolutionary chimpanzee/cheetah hybrid pizza delivery servant. The thief is then able sneak in undetected and steal your zygotes and tissue samples. Worst-case scenario, they'll take a kidney as well. Yours, I mean. This is why it's so important to have physical safeguards in place, like the mechanical stops that keep the home defense cannon in the foyer from being aimed away from the front door. And obviously bulletproof metal shutters.
- aequitas 6y ago
  "You only need a lock that looks better than your neighbours". If you take your average thief, they will walk past your house and if it looks like it's worth breaking in they will do this, or go to the next house that looks easier or more promising. They won't even notice your custom smart lock solution and think it might be hackable (unless it's a common brand with a generic explain available, think of scriptkiddy hacking skill requirement). They will go for the easiest thing, like a open window, or break a small window to open the door from the inside. Now if you have a dedicated thief that wants to rob you specifically, they might want to invest into hacking your lock. But only if the rest of your house is already a fortress, or covertness is really key. But if they really want something they might just take an axe to your door and threaten you to open your vault.
  - PinguTS 6y ago
    "If you need strong security, then there must be something valuable to protect." If you take your average thief, they will walk past your house and if looks like an wide open door, then he knows there is not much to get and will walk past next to a bit better protected door.
    - KineticLensman 6y ago
      > then he knows there is not much to get and will walk past next to a bit better protected door. In parts of South Africa there has been a continual levelling up of security systems in neighbourhoods where crime can involve fatal assaults in your own home as well as casual burglary. As soon as one resident installs something that seems to add security, the neighbours may rush to install it themselves so that they aren't seen as the softest target. This is in places where many houses have signs saying that they are protected by armed rapid response teams. Source: expat friends of mine who lived for ten years in communities that went from 'normal' houses (locks), protected properties (e.g. sharps on walls), gated communities, high-protection gated communities. [Edit - clarity]
      - fakedang 6y ago
        In our home in a Southern Indian state, we have multiple locks, glass shards on the compound walls, a regular police patrol every 2 hours in the night and a watchman for the entire community. We're currently in the process of getting a new security camera system and some of our neighbours have gone as far as to get fingerprint enabled locks. But all that doesn't stop us from falling victim to petty theft, largely by hired help. A former maid was caught stealing cutlery (not even silverware), another one caught stealing a bunch of forex, and yet another stealing a bunch of cosmetics. Calling a repair person means watching over him while he works so as to ensure that he doesn't pilfer parts away - imagine having a few screws stolen here and there from your cupboard, or your bolt lock being stolen. It's funny in a way I guess. Some folks, like one of my wealthier uncles, even hires Gurkhas with khukris and guns to guard their house. But his house is right on the highway, so some caution might be adequate.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  That's not how any insurance I am aware of works. Leaving your door unlocked does not void your homeowners insurance.
jstanley 6y ago
> There are many ways in which your door lock can be opened or broken. I once locked myself out of the house and called a locksmith to let me back in. He didn't even touch the lock, he just reached through the letterbox with a lever and operated the handle from the inside. I felt a bit stupid paying him to do it really, because I could totally have done that myself if only I'd thought of the idea, but of course that's easy to say once you've seen how it's done.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Same happened to me and the locksmith just used a piece of strong plastic sheet (like credit cards in the movies) between the door and the door frame to open the latch bolt. It took about 2 minutes... And once it also happened (I know...) with a secure door and lock, and although the locksmith had to break the lock he managed in under 10 minutes. My conclusion is that residential doors and locks, even secure, expensive ones, are no match for professionals. They protect against opportunity theft and idiots.
  - magicalhippo 6y ago
    Reminded me of this talk. So many silly things leading to easy access. "I'll Let Myself In: Tactics of Physical Pen Testers" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmcRTnTNC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmcRTnTNC8
    - mytailorisrich 6y ago
      Yep. 7:15, exactly that. Plastic sheet and 20 seconds.
  - 14 6y ago
    I love watching the lock picking lawyer on YouTube and how easily most locks are defeated. When I was like 16 we were interested in lock picking simply for the challenge. It didn’t take long with some filed down and bent mini flat head screw drivers from the dollar store and me and my teen friends learned to open pad locks. We had no skill just mostly raked across the pins and a lot of locks that is all it takes. It quickly made me realize locks are mostly for honest people.
buro9 6y ago
My risk vector isn't someone breaking in. It's whether insurance pay out.
dirktheman 6y ago
I agree with you on the 'door lock will offer protection'. The vast majority of break-ins are actually climb-ins through an open window (forced or not), or by smashing a door window. Once you have a decent lock installed thieves will find another way to enter your house. Some of these smart locks however turn out to have MASSIVE exploits (sending out unencrypted bluetooth addresses for instance). Sure, you could research and pick a lock from a wellknown brand with proven security. The downside to software security is that there is a possibility that a hack can be developed in the future. With an old-fashioned key, the risks are pretty well known. I'm a big fan of home automation (Home Assistant user here). I'm rather proud of my setup where I can measure, control and secure my entire house. But I'm not using smart locks. Their use cases are, in my case, very limited (I've never encountered a situation where I thought 'darnit, I wish I could open that door without a key') and therefore not worth the extra risk.
- flyinghamster 6y ago
  Unencrypted Bluetooth is the least of the problems with "smart" locks. All too often, a simple permanent magnet is all that's needed to pop the relay that controls the lock's solenoid. Obligatory LockPickingLawyer: https://youtu.be/XXW27KKHtc8 https://youtu.be/XXW27KKHtc8
  - ziml77 6y ago
    Isn't that only possible if the relay is stupidly placed on the outside? All of the control should happen on the other side of the door, with the entry device simply feeding the input over.

by pqs 6y ago

leoedin 6y ago

If someone has to break a window to get in, you've got clear evidence of a break in. Insurance will be easier, the police will take you more seriously. It also deters casual thieves who might try the door. Sure, any lock is more deterrent than a fortress, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't bother.

FractalParadigm 6y ago

I think the difference the OP is pointing out is that, insurance can look at a broken door or a broken window and say "yep, this is where the person entered the property." Whereas they'll look at a home-built door lock that was hacked/bypassed and deny any claim, on the basis it "wasn't secure enough" - similar in vein to just leaving your front door unlocked, you won't get any sort of payout

skohan 6y ago
I think @pqs' point is a valid one though: circumventing a home lock by compromising a home automation system's security is surely a higher bar for thief to overcome than breaking through a window, so it's a bit funny for the former to be categorized as a failure on the part of the homeowner, while nobody is expecting everyone to install bulletproof metal shutters.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  Sure, breaking a window is easier, but that triggers an alarm and arms the home defense system. If, OTOH, the thief subverts the home automation system, not only can they open the door and disable the cameras, they can instruct the system to pipe the anti-intruder knockout gas into the biolab/hackerspace where you are burning the midlight oil, working on your revolutionary chimpanzee/cheetah hybrid pizza delivery servant. The thief is then able sneak in undetected and steal your zygotes and tissue samples. Worst-case scenario, they'll take a kidney as well. Yours, I mean. This is why it's so important to have physical safeguards in place, like the mechanical stops that keep the home defense cannon in the foyer from being aimed away from the front door. And obviously bulletproof metal shutters.
aequitas 6y ago
"You only need a lock that looks better than your neighbours". If you take your average thief, they will walk past your house and if it looks like it's worth breaking in they will do this, or go to the next house that looks easier or more promising. They won't even notice your custom smart lock solution and think it might be hackable (unless it's a common brand with a generic explain available, think of scriptkiddy hacking skill requirement). They will go for the easiest thing, like a open window, or break a small window to open the door from the inside. Now if you have a dedicated thief that wants to rob you specifically, they might want to invest into hacking your lock. But only if the rest of your house is already a fortress, or covertness is really key. But if they really want something they might just take an axe to your door and threaten you to open your vault.
- PinguTS 6y ago
  "If you need strong security, then there must be something valuable to protect." If you take your average thief, they will walk past your house and if looks like an wide open door, then he knows there is not much to get and will walk past next to a bit better protected door.
  - KineticLensman 6y ago
    > then he knows there is not much to get and will walk past next to a bit better protected door. In parts of South Africa there has been a continual levelling up of security systems in neighbourhoods where crime can involve fatal assaults in your own home as well as casual burglary. As soon as one resident installs something that seems to add security, the neighbours may rush to install it themselves so that they aren't seen as the softest target. This is in places where many houses have signs saying that they are protected by armed rapid response teams. Source: expat friends of mine who lived for ten years in communities that went from 'normal' houses (locks), protected properties (e.g. sharps on walls), gated communities, high-protection gated communities. [Edit - clarity]
    - fakedang 6y ago
      In our home in a Southern Indian state, we have multiple locks, glass shards on the compound walls, a regular police patrol every 2 hours in the night and a watchman for the entire community. We're currently in the process of getting a new security camera system and some of our neighbours have gone as far as to get fingerprint enabled locks. But all that doesn't stop us from falling victim to petty theft, largely by hired help. A former maid was caught stealing cutlery (not even silverware), another one caught stealing a bunch of forex, and yet another stealing a bunch of cosmetics. Calling a repair person means watching over him while he works so as to ensure that he doesn't pilfer parts away - imagine having a few screws stolen here and there from your cupboard, or your bolt lock being stolen. It's funny in a way I guess. Some folks, like one of my wealthier uncles, even hires Gurkhas with khukris and guns to guard their house. But his house is right on the highway, so some caution might be adequate.
jjeaff 6y ago
That's not how any insurance I am aware of works. Leaving your door unlocked does not void your homeowners insurance.

jstanley 6y ago

> There are many ways in which your door lock can be opened or broken. I once locked myself out of the house and called a locksmith to let me back in. He didn't even touch the lock, he just reached through the letterbox with a lever and operated the handle from the inside. I felt a bit stupid paying him to do it really, because I could totally have done that myself if only I'd thought of the idea, but of course that's easy to say once you've seen how it's done.

mytailorisrich 6y ago
Same happened to me and the locksmith just used a piece of strong plastic sheet (like credit cards in the movies) between the door and the door frame to open the latch bolt. It took about 2 minutes... And once it also happened (I know...) with a secure door and lock, and although the locksmith had to break the lock he managed in under 10 minutes. My conclusion is that residential doors and locks, even secure, expensive ones, are no match for professionals. They protect against opportunity theft and idiots.
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  Reminded me of this talk. So many silly things leading to easy access. "I'll Let Myself In: Tactics of Physical Pen Testers" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmcRTnTNC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnmcRTnTNC8
  - mytailorisrich 6y ago
    Yep. 7:15, exactly that. Plastic sheet and 20 seconds.
- 14 6y ago
  I love watching the lock picking lawyer on YouTube and how easily most locks are defeated. When I was like 16 we were interested in lock picking simply for the challenge. It didn’t take long with some filed down and bent mini flat head screw drivers from the dollar store and me and my teen friends learned to open pad locks. We had no skill just mostly raked across the pins and a lot of locks that is all it takes. It quickly made me realize locks are mostly for honest people.

buro9 6y ago

My risk vector isn't someone breaking in. It's whether insurance pay out.

dirktheman 6y ago

I agree with you on the 'door lock will offer protection'. The vast majority of break-ins are actually climb-ins through an open window (forced or not), or by smashing a door window. Once you have a decent lock installed thieves will find another way to enter your house. Some of these smart locks however turn out to have MASSIVE exploits (sending out unencrypted bluetooth addresses for instance). Sure, you could research and pick a lock from a wellknown brand with proven security. The downside to software security is that there is a possibility that a hack can be developed in the future. With an old-fashioned key, the risks are pretty well known. I'm a big fan of home automation (Home Assistant user here). I'm rather proud of my setup where I can measure, control and secure my entire house. But I'm not using smart locks. Their use cases are, in my case, very limited (I've never encountered a situation where I thought 'darnit, I wish I could open that door without a key') and therefore not worth the extra risk.

flyinghamster 6y ago
Unencrypted Bluetooth is the least of the problems with "smart" locks. All too often, a simple permanent magnet is all that's needed to pop the relay that controls the lock's solenoid. Obligatory LockPickingLawyer: https://youtu.be/XXW27KKHtc8 https://youtu.be/XXW27KKHtc8
- ziml77 6y ago
  Isn't that only possible if the relay is stupidly placed on the outside? All of the control should happen on the other side of the door, with the entry device simply feeding the input over.