5 ms·

On Microsoft dominating - because developers don’t matter, users do. None of these superior technology would be willing to make an exception in the kernel so th

On Microsoft dominating - because developers don’t matter, users do. None of these superior technology would be willing to make an exception in the kernel so that SimCity can run (look up the story from Raymond Chen if you are not familiar). Linux found considerably more success in servers as the users themselves are “developer like”.

vvanders 6y ago
For those curious about the story https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/24/strategy-letter-ii-chicken-and-egg-problems/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/24/strategy-letter-ii... is a great read with other useful tidbits as well.
- zaphirplane 6y ago
  There is something to be said about the 2 companies mentioned other that MS, that did the right backwards compatible thing, transmeta and paymybills one is bust and the other doesn’t show up the the 1 page of a search.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
    > the other doesn’t show up the the 1 page of a search. It merged with PayTrust, which was acquired by Metavante, who then sold the customers to Intuit. All this happened in the early 2000s. More recently it seems that Intuit sold Paytrust back to Metavante. It's still operating a service at Paytrust.com.
solidsnack9000 6y ago
Closest thing I can find is from Joel Spolsky: I first heard about this from one of the developers of the hit game SimCity, who told me that there was a critical bug in his application: it used memory right after freeing it, a major no-no that happened to work OK on DOS but would not work under Windows where memory that is freed is likely to be snatched up by another running application right away. The testers on the Windows team were going through various popular applications, testing them to make sure they worked OK, but SimCity kept crashing. They reported this to the Windows developers, who disassembled SimCity, stepped through it in a debugger, found the bug, and added special code that checked if SimCity was running, and if it did, ran the memory allocator in a special mode in which you could still use memory after freeing it. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost-the-api-war/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
- radmuzom 6y ago
  Yes I could not find the original link too. Closest I could find is (the link mentioned in the paragraph below is broken) - "Interesting defense. While Chen has a good point about Microsoft taking the blame unfairly over this and perhaps similar issues its not like Microsoft is renown for their code quality. Indeed, check out an item in J.B. Surveyer's Keep an Open Eye blog from September 2004 which details how Chen's team added code to allow Windows to work around a bug in Sim City!" https://www.networkworld.com/article/2356556/microsoft-code-taking-the-blame.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2356556/microsoft-code-...
  - quietbritishjim 6y ago
    Here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20070114082053/http://www.theopensourcery.com/wordp1/index.php?p=87 https://web.archive.org/web/20070114082053/http://www.theope... It actually refers back to the Joel on Software blog post in the comment above.
renox 6y ago
There's a similar explanation for Linux's success on servers: Linus is very strict on backward compatibility for the kernel. But for Linux on desktop, the rest of the stack (GUI environments) is made by a bunch of CADT devs who don't care about backward compatibility is, so of course it failed..
- eecc 6y ago
  CADT? What do you mean?
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    google "CADT jwz". For various reasons it can't be linked from HN.
  - brazzy 6y ago
    https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
  - sobani 6y ago
    Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers (open-source software development model)
- pkaye 6y ago
  What kind of backward compatibility for GUI environments are you talking about?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    The kind where you can still use an application 2 years later without having to recompile it.
    - cycloptic 6y ago
      That generally isn't a problem if you pin/vendor your dependencies... the same thing that most developers seem to do on Windows and mac anyway.
redis_mlc 6y ago
This is very old information, as are most of Raymond Chen's posts. Generally speaking, Microsoft hasn't cared about backwards compatibility for over a decade.
beagle3 6y ago
The Amiga lost the war for completely different reasons. The competition at the time was MS-DOS 4 or 5, windows 2 (and 3.0) were still a toy — and they had compatibility problems. BeOS had no chance to be evaluated on its own merits because by that time Microsoft had already applied anticompetitive and illegal leverage on PC vendors - for which they were convicted and paid a hefty fine (which was likely a calculated and very successful investment, all things considered). The Amiga wasn’t even expensive for what it gave: it was significantly cheaper than a PC or Mac with comparable performance, and even had decently fast PC emulation and ran Mac software faster than the Mac. It did not have a cheap “entry level” model, though, which was one big problem. The other (not unrelated) problem was incredible incompetence among Commodore management.
- icedchai 6y ago
  Do you not consider the A500 cheap? I believe you they were going for around $600 in late 80’s money, at least in the US. This wasn’t Atari ST cheap but still not a bad deal.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    A starter no-brand beige box was always cheaper. And iirc, for a long time you couldn’t get an el-cheapo monochrome monitor for the Amiga - only color or TV, which was ok for the C64-upgraders but not for the PC competition.
    - icedchai 6y ago
      True. PC clones were always cheaper. You could use a composite monitor on the A500/2000. It was only in monochrome. I did that for the first couple months I had my A500.
      - beagle3 6y ago
        Around me, they still cost twice as much as a CGA or Hercules (or even dual) monochrome monitor. The starter Amiga cost twice the starter PC until 1993 or so, and by then the war was lost. It was too expensive for a middle class family where I lived.

vvanders 6y ago

For those curious about the story https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/24/strategy-letter-ii-chicken-and-egg-problems/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/05/24/strategy-letter-ii... is a great read with other useful tidbits as well.

zaphirplane 6y ago
There is something to be said about the 2 companies mentioned other that MS, that did the right backwards compatible thing, transmeta and paymybills one is bust and the other doesn’t show up the the 1 page of a search.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
  > the other doesn’t show up the the 1 page of a search. It merged with PayTrust, which was acquired by Metavante, who then sold the customers to Intuit. All this happened in the early 2000s. More recently it seems that Intuit sold Paytrust back to Metavante. It's still operating a service at Paytrust.com.

solidsnack9000 6y ago

Closest thing I can find is from Joel Spolsky: I first heard about this from one of the developers of the hit game SimCity, who told me that there was a critical bug in his application: it used memory right after freeing it, a major no-no that happened to work OK on DOS but would not work under Windows where memory that is freed is likely to be snatched up by another running application right away. The testers on the Windows team were going through various popular applications, testing them to make sure they worked OK, but SimCity kept crashing. They reported this to the Windows developers, who disassembled SimCity, stepped through it in a debugger, found the bug, and added special code that checked if SimCity was running, and if it did, ran the memory allocator in a special mode in which you could still use memory after freeing it. https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost-the-api-war/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...

radmuzom 6y ago
Yes I could not find the original link too. Closest I could find is (the link mentioned in the paragraph below is broken) - "Interesting defense. While Chen has a good point about Microsoft taking the blame unfairly over this and perhaps similar issues its not like Microsoft is renown for their code quality. Indeed, check out an item in J.B. Surveyer's Keep an Open Eye blog from September 2004 which details how Chen's team added code to allow Windows to work around a bug in Sim City!" https://www.networkworld.com/article/2356556/microsoft-code-taking-the-blame.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2356556/microsoft-code-...
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  Here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20070114082053/http://www.theopensourcery.com/wordp1/index.php?p=87 https://web.archive.org/web/20070114082053/http://www.theope... It actually refers back to the Joel on Software blog post in the comment above.

renox 6y ago

There's a similar explanation for Linux's success on servers: Linus is very strict on backward compatibility for the kernel. But for Linux on desktop, the rest of the stack (GUI environments) is made by a bunch of CADT devs who don't care about backward compatibility is, so of course it failed..

eecc 6y ago
CADT? What do you mean?
- gpderetta 6y ago
  google "CADT jwz". For various reasons it can't be linked from HN.
- brazzy 6y ago
  https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html
- sobani 6y ago
  Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers (open-source software development model)
pkaye 6y ago
What kind of backward compatibility for GUI environments are you talking about?
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  The kind where you can still use an application 2 years later without having to recompile it.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    That generally isn't a problem if you pin/vendor your dependencies... the same thing that most developers seem to do on Windows and mac anyway.

redis_mlc 6y ago

This is very old information, as are most of Raymond Chen's posts. Generally speaking, Microsoft hasn't cared about backwards compatibility for over a decade.

beagle3 6y ago

The Amiga lost the war for completely different reasons. The competition at the time was MS-DOS 4 or 5, windows 2 (and 3.0) were still a toy — and they had compatibility problems. BeOS had no chance to be evaluated on its own merits because by that time Microsoft had already applied anticompetitive and illegal leverage on PC vendors - for which they were convicted and paid a hefty fine (which was likely a calculated and very successful investment, all things considered). The Amiga wasn’t even expensive for what it gave: it was significantly cheaper than a PC or Mac with comparable performance, and even had decently fast PC emulation and ran Mac software faster than the Mac. It did not have a cheap “entry level” model, though, which was one big problem. The other (not unrelated) problem was incredible incompetence among Commodore management.

icedchai 6y ago
Do you not consider the A500 cheap? I believe you they were going for around $600 in late 80’s money, at least in the US. This wasn’t Atari ST cheap but still not a bad deal.
- beagle3 6y ago
  A starter no-brand beige box was always cheaper. And iirc, for a long time you couldn’t get an el-cheapo monochrome monitor for the Amiga - only color or TV, which was ok for the C64-upgraders but not for the PC competition.
  - icedchai 6y ago
    True. PC clones were always cheaper. You could use a composite monitor on the A500/2000. It was only in monochrome. I did that for the first couple months I had my A500.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      Around me, they still cost twice as much as a CGA or Hercules (or even dual) monochrome monitor. The starter Amiga cost twice the starter PC until 1993 or so, and by then the war was lost. It was too expensive for a middle class family where I lived.