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I don't really get this narrative about the T2. Apple removed the T2/integrated it into the M1 and didn't lock down things any further. If they were going to lo

by DCKing 6y ago

I don't really get this narrative about the T2. Apple removed the T2/integrated it into the M1 and didn't lock down things any further. If they were going to lock it down, this would have been the time for it, given there's no Bootcamp for Apple Silicon. Yet Apple specifically allows you to sign custom kernels offline on Apple Silicon Macs. People also seem to be convinced that the T2 was a "locking down" measure, while all that's really missing is a Linux driver to interface with the T2. Surely Apple doesn't care at all about actively supporting Linux (and publishing specs), but they also don't lock this down. The only support I see for the idea that Apple will "lock down Macs" is that for some reason they're irrationally hell bent on turning Macs into iPads. I don't see how that idea holds up if you inspect it closely though.

tyingq 6y ago
I'm not trying to peddle a conspiracy theory, but the slow progression "boil frogs" method is how this sort of thing is usually done. I mention the T2 because secure storage for secure boot is a pretty obvious way to implement. The percent of revenue coming from Macs continues to go down. I'm just assuming that at some point, the only (financial) reason the Mac exists is for Xcode.
- zepto 6y ago
  It’s a conspiracy theory. Any attempt to improve security is of course going to follow a progression. All software development is progressive. The leap from there to a ‘boiling frog’ i.e. that this is being done so the user won’t notice a hidden agenda, is a conspiracy theory.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    I suppose, if you consider any speculation to be a conspiracy theory.
    - zepto 6y ago
      It’s not ‘any speculation’. It is a theory that a group of people with power have a hidden agenda that is contrary to what they have public stated, despite the facts being consistent with the public claims. That is pretty much the definition a conspiracy theory.
      - tyingq 6y ago
        A group of people that already understand and take great advantage of locked down platforms and services. And we're talking about a product (Mac) that was specifically much more locked down than its predecessor when it was launched.
        zepto 6y ago
        A group of people who have said that they see the Mac differently from iOS, and who have explicitly said they don’t plan to lock it down. For you to be right, this must be a planned deception. That is a conspiracy theory. It seems like you actually know this and are just trying to argue that that you’re right that there is a conspiracy. For what it’s worth - I don’t think there is anything fundamentally wrong with that. Conspiracies are sometimes real. I’d just rather be open about what we are saying.
        serf 6y ago
        >For you to be right, this must be a planned deception. Sure, you're right, it's conspiracy theory -- but one doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to predict further anti-consumer action from companies that have a long and sordid past with anti-consumer actions. Apple , quite literally, wrote the playbook for establishing gilded cages and vendor lock-in within the (modern) computer industry. I mean.. most companies in the world don't generate enough ire that the public get together and maintain a wikipedia page about the criticisms that apply to the company separately from the parent page.[0] But absolutely, I agree -- it's conspiracy theory. The problem I have personally with conspiracy theory regarding Apple is that over the past 30+ years i've seen a lot of it turn into fact gradually over time. I have very few doubts that the trend will continue onward. -- as such I have little problem with entertaining conspiracy regarding Apple, as long as it's not absolutely insane. Apple seems to be masterful at the magicians' game of misdirection. That's the best way I can put it. 'Ignore the man behind the curtain.'. The most modern example? Let's talk about how fast and cool and battery conserving their new processors are without taking into account the vast amounts of software breakage that came along with the architecture change and the future software landscape reform that's going to take place that will establish Apple customers even more firmly into territory they can't ever hope to leave. ...and this is coming from someone who , historically, has loved ARM. MY problem with it is that the architecture change, IMO of course, is going to undoubtedly be used to leverage and strong-arm customers into Apple-centric 'app-store' interfaces, pulling the market apart just like in the PPC days between Apple OK-d software and the rest of humanity -- for the sake of a lot of quick bucks for Apple and a lot of additional developer/customer friction for the rest of the world. We'll see, I guess. I like the new M1 on paper, I just trust Apple about as far as I can throw them. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.
- markonen 6y ago
  Apple's Mac category revenue was $9 billion in the latest quarter, up 29% year-on-year—growing faster than any other category. And this was before the M1 launch. At this revenue run rate, a standalone Mac company would be in the Fortune 100, next to companies like Nike and Coca-Cola.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    That's a quarter. See: https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/8817.jpeg https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/8817.jpeg https://images.macrumors.com/t/hIKaZ3dlMYeHuw-3yqiPbLiHtnc=/800x0/filters:quality(90)/article-new/2020/01/1q20_earnings_line_labels.jpg?lossy https://images.macrumors.com/t/hIKaZ3dlMYeHuw-3yqiPbLiHtnc=/... And, yes, it's still significant, but it's also lower margin revenue than other Apple products.
    - markonen 6y ago
      Pretty sure Mac is going to do well this quarter, too. And surely Apple Silicon means that margins are going up.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  The boiled frog fable [1] is false. [1] https://archive.vn/mu6T https://archive.vn/mu6T
  - secondcoming 6y ago
    In other news, the cow did not jump over the moon
  - tyingq 6y ago
    As are many illustrative, and still useful, metaphors.
- danudey 6y ago
  For what it's worth, these are all the same arguments people have made regarding the TPM chip over the last ~15 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module It also reminds me a lot of the Palladium controversy of ages gone by: https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-palladium-what-the-heck-is-it/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-palladium-what-the-...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - tyingq 6y ago
    Isn't the TPM a large part of why it's difficult to run anything other than iOS on an iPad/iPhone?
    - DCKing 6y ago
      iPhones don't really contain any hardware that does not have more or less a conceptual equivalent in other smartphones. I suppose with "TPM" you mean the "Secure Element", which on iPhones and modern Android phones contains the disk encryption keys. Like a lot of other smartphones, the main difficulty in running something else on an iDevice is the locked bootloader. It won't run anything not signed by Apple. If an exploit like checkra1n is used to defeat this, iPhones can run Linux in principle [1], of course practically restricted by a lack of a large amount of drivers required to run Linux well. This iDevice OS lockdown completely reduces to 1) the locked bootloader which must be "defeated" - which M1 Macs contain a built in tool for - and 2) the only OS with drivers for the hardware being Apple's Darwin. So no, the TPM isn't a large part of why it's so difficult to run anything else on an iDevice. [1]: https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/16/running-postmarketos-on-iphone-7/ https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/16/running-postmar...
      - lxgr 6y ago
        You probably mean the Secure Enclave. The Secure Element contains payment applications and keys for Apple Pay.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >I'm not trying to peddle a conspiracy theory, but the slow progression "boil frogs" method Yes, but another name for the "they're using the boil frogs method" is "slippery slope fallacy".
  - tyingq 6y ago
    How's that? Slippery slope depends on a "relatively small first step". Apple already has other hardware and software platforms that aren't open.

by DCKing 6y ago

tyingq 6y ago

I'm not trying to peddle a conspiracy theory, but the slow progression "boil frogs" method is how this sort of thing is usually done. I mention the T2 because secure storage for secure boot is a pretty obvious way to implement. The percent of revenue coming from Macs continues to go down. I'm just assuming that at some point, the only (financial) reason the Mac exists is for Xcode.

zepto 6y ago
It’s a conspiracy theory. Any attempt to improve security is of course going to follow a progression. All software development is progressive. The leap from there to a ‘boiling frog’ i.e. that this is being done so the user won’t notice a hidden agenda, is a conspiracy theory.
- tyingq 6y ago
  I suppose, if you consider any speculation to be a conspiracy theory.
  - zepto 6y ago
    It’s not ‘any speculation’. It is a theory that a group of people with power have a hidden agenda that is contrary to what they have public stated, despite the facts being consistent with the public claims. That is pretty much the definition a conspiracy theory.
    - tyingq 6y ago
      A group of people that already understand and take great advantage of locked down platforms and services. And we're talking about a product (Mac) that was specifically much more locked down than its predecessor when it was launched.
      - zepto 6y ago
        A group of people who have said that they see the Mac differently from iOS, and who have explicitly said they don’t plan to lock it down. For you to be right, this must be a planned deception. That is a conspiracy theory. It seems like you actually know this and are just trying to argue that that you’re right that there is a conspiracy. For what it’s worth - I don’t think there is anything fundamentally wrong with that. Conspiracies are sometimes real. I’d just rather be open about what we are saying.
        serf 6y ago
        >For you to be right, this must be a planned deception. Sure, you're right, it's conspiracy theory -- but one doesn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to predict further anti-consumer action from companies that have a long and sordid past with anti-consumer actions. Apple , quite literally, wrote the playbook for establishing gilded cages and vendor lock-in within the (modern) computer industry. I mean.. most companies in the world don't generate enough ire that the public get together and maintain a wikipedia page about the criticisms that apply to the company separately from the parent page.[0] But absolutely, I agree -- it's conspiracy theory. The problem I have personally with conspiracy theory regarding Apple is that over the past 30+ years i've seen a lot of it turn into fact gradually over time. I have very few doubts that the trend will continue onward. -- as such I have little problem with entertaining conspiracy regarding Apple, as long as it's not absolutely insane. Apple seems to be masterful at the magicians' game of misdirection. That's the best way I can put it. 'Ignore the man behind the curtain.'. The most modern example? Let's talk about how fast and cool and battery conserving their new processors are without taking into account the vast amounts of software breakage that came along with the architecture change and the future software landscape reform that's going to take place that will establish Apple customers even more firmly into territory they can't ever hope to leave. ...and this is coming from someone who , historically, has loved ARM. MY problem with it is that the architecture change, IMO of course, is going to undoubtedly be used to leverage and strong-arm customers into Apple-centric 'app-store' interfaces, pulling the market apart just like in the PPC days between Apple OK-d software and the rest of humanity -- for the sake of a lot of quick bucks for Apple and a lot of additional developer/customer friction for the rest of the world. We'll see, I guess. I like the new M1 on paper, I just trust Apple about as far as I can throw them. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.
markonen 6y ago
Apple's Mac category revenue was $9 billion in the latest quarter, up 29% year-on-year—growing faster than any other category. And this was before the M1 launch. At this revenue run rate, a standalone Mac company would be in the Fortune 100, next to companies like Nike and Coca-Cola.
- tyingq 6y ago
  That's a quarter. See: https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/8817.jpeg https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/8817.jpeg https://images.macrumors.com/t/hIKaZ3dlMYeHuw-3yqiPbLiHtnc=/800x0/filters:quality(90)/article-new/2020/01/1q20_earnings_line_labels.jpg?lossy https://images.macrumors.com/t/hIKaZ3dlMYeHuw-3yqiPbLiHtnc=/... And, yes, it's still significant, but it's also lower margin revenue than other Apple products.
  - markonen 6y ago
    Pretty sure Mac is going to do well this quarter, too. And surely Apple Silicon means that margins are going up.
Fnoord 6y ago
The boiled frog fable [1] is false. [1] https://archive.vn/mu6T https://archive.vn/mu6T
- secondcoming 6y ago
  In other news, the cow did not jump over the moon
- tyingq 6y ago
  As are many illustrative, and still useful, metaphors.
danudey 6y ago
For what it's worth, these are all the same arguments people have made regarding the TPM chip over the last ~15 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Platform_Module It also reminds me a lot of the Palladium controversy of ages gone by: https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-palladium-what-the-heck-is-it/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-palladium-what-the-...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tyingq 6y ago
  Isn't the TPM a large part of why it's difficult to run anything other than iOS on an iPad/iPhone?
  - DCKing 6y ago
    iPhones don't really contain any hardware that does not have more or less a conceptual equivalent in other smartphones. I suppose with "TPM" you mean the "Secure Element", which on iPhones and modern Android phones contains the disk encryption keys. Like a lot of other smartphones, the main difficulty in running something else on an iDevice is the locked bootloader. It won't run anything not signed by Apple. If an exploit like checkra1n is used to defeat this, iPhones can run Linux in principle [1], of course practically restricted by a lack of a large amount of drivers required to run Linux well. This iDevice OS lockdown completely reduces to 1) the locked bootloader which must be "defeated" - which M1 Macs contain a built in tool for - and 2) the only OS with drivers for the hardware being Apple's Darwin. So no, the TPM isn't a large part of why it's so difficult to run anything else on an iDevice. [1]: https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/16/running-postmarketos-on-iphone-7/ https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/16/running-postmar...
    - lxgr 6y ago
      You probably mean the Secure Enclave. The Secure Element contains payment applications and keys for Apple Pay.
coldtea 6y ago
>I'm not trying to peddle a conspiracy theory, but the slow progression "boil frogs" method Yes, but another name for the "they're using the boil frogs method" is "slippery slope fallacy".
- tyingq 6y ago
  How's that? Slippery slope depends on a "relatively small first step". Apple already has other hardware and software platforms that aren't open.