3 ms·

I can definitely see why people like them and thanks for being transparent about it rather than try to justify it with secondary reasons. My only suggestion is

I can definitely see why people like them and thanks for being transparent about it rather than try to justify it with secondary reasons. My only suggestion is irrespective of the environmental aspect is, do check the performance of your next SUV with regards to "Pedestrian Safety" crash tests (Also standardized by Euro NCAP). Specially when you mentioned city center, and The Netherlands. The difference between a regular sedan and an SUV could be the difference between a kid with fractured legs or the weight of forever taking someone's life.

Acinyx 6y ago
I kind of wonder if what we Europeans call SUVs is really what a lot of thew people in these threads think about. For example, I am going to buy a new car in the next 2 years, so looking a bit, and two cars I might be choosing behind would be the: Peugeot 3008/5008, seen as a SUV in the Netherlands: 67% Pedestrian Euro NCAP score: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/3008/5008/26581 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/3008/5008/26581 Peugeot 208, smaller car, same brand, same year: 56% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/208/38543 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/208/38543 Or the original posters BMW X3: 70% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/x3-/-x4/33285 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/x3-/-x4/33285 Otoh, the BMW 3 series: 87% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/3-series/38531 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/3-series/38531 Full electric BMW i3: 57% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/i3/8863 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/i3/8863 So what I am trying to say is: yes, "SUV" in general are likely to be worse for pedestrians, but there is so much variability, that "picking a SUV" doesn't mean much about safety.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  I understand the concern but it is not based on comparable data. A few things to take into account: - The 67℅ in the test in 2016 for the Peugeot 3008 is based on a Pedestrian Impact performance. - The 56% of the test in 2019 for Peugeot 208 is based on a Pedestrian Impact Performance _and_ ADAS pedestrian detection +Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) performance An important point with Euro NCAP is that typically the tests are always getting harder year on year to account for the expected technological development. Such that the same car would progressively score less if it were to repeat the Euro NCAP test year on year. I hope this helps your concern. In 'standard height' cars the first impact is usually on lower limbs or torso and secondary trauma to the head will happen on the bonnet or windshield. In SUV's, pedestrian and cyclists are much likely to suffer head trauma on first impact. My point is, in the horrific scenario that this should happens the survival rate will always be higher for non-SUV vehicles (ideally with longer bonnets and pedestrian friendly deformable structures).
dzhiurgis 6y ago
Do you have any data about pedestrians killed by SUV’s vs other car shapes?
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  "At speeds in excess of 40 miles per hour, 100% of the SUV incidents studied resulted in the death of a pedestrian, compared to 54% for crashes involving cars at this speed."[0] "The GHSA reported that the number of pedestrian deaths involving SUVs increased by 50 percent from 2013 through 2017, while the number of pedestrian deaths caused by passenger cars increased by 30 percent over that same period. That reflects booming sales of SUVs and the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to survive the impact of an SUV."[1] [0] https://brandonlegalgroup.com/iihs-study-suvs-present-a-higher-pedestrian-accident-data-than-cars/ https://brandonlegalgroup.com/iihs-study-suvs-present-a-high... [1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestrian-safety-crisis-deaths-ghsa/2993321002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestri...
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Study size of n=79, amazing.
    - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
      I assumed you asked in good faith so I will try to ignore the unnecessary sarcasm. I hope a Cochrane meta-analysis meets your evidence based statistical standards.[0][1] It's physics, a higher front-end means primary blunt force trauma to the chest and head (specially for children and cyclists), were by primary we mean the first and highest force trauma, and by chest and head we mean trauma to vital organs. I am not judging if this type of vehicle is your preference but demanding scientific rigor without accepting the physics involved just feels like a cognitive dissonance. I am not arguing that higher front-end vehicles cause accidents, I am arguing that pedestrian are less likely to survive upon impact compared to other vehicles. The only reason these vehicles are not banned from city centres is purely because they are a marketing and economical success not because of lack of evidence on their dangers. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20146143/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20146143/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33147075/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33147075/

Acinyx 6y ago

I kind of wonder if what we Europeans call SUVs is really what a lot of thew people in these threads think about. For example, I am going to buy a new car in the next 2 years, so looking a bit, and two cars I might be choosing behind would be the: Peugeot 3008/5008, seen as a SUV in the Netherlands: 67% Pedestrian Euro NCAP score: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/3008/5008/26581 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/3008/5008/26581 Peugeot 208, smaller car, same brand, same year: 56% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/208/38543 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/208/38543 Or the original posters BMW X3: 70% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/x3-/-x4/33285 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/x3-/-x4/33285 Otoh, the BMW 3 series: 87% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/3-series/38531 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/3-series/38531 Full electric BMW i3: 57% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/i3/8863 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/i3/8863 So what I am trying to say is: yes, "SUV" in general are likely to be worse for pedestrians, but there is so much variability, that "picking a SUV" doesn't mean much about safety.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
I understand the concern but it is not based on comparable data. A few things to take into account: - The 67℅ in the test in 2016 for the Peugeot 3008 is based on a Pedestrian Impact performance. - The 56% of the test in 2019 for Peugeot 208 is based on a Pedestrian Impact Performance _and_ ADAS pedestrian detection +Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) performance An important point with Euro NCAP is that typically the tests are always getting harder year on year to account for the expected technological development. Such that the same car would progressively score less if it were to repeat the Euro NCAP test year on year. I hope this helps your concern. In 'standard height' cars the first impact is usually on lower limbs or torso and secondary trauma to the head will happen on the bonnet or windshield. In SUV's, pedestrian and cyclists are much likely to suffer head trauma on first impact. My point is, in the horrific scenario that this should happens the survival rate will always be higher for non-SUV vehicles (ideally with longer bonnets and pedestrian friendly deformable structures).

dzhiurgis 6y ago

Do you have any data about pedestrians killed by SUV’s vs other car shapes?

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
"At speeds in excess of 40 miles per hour, 100% of the SUV incidents studied resulted in the death of a pedestrian, compared to 54% for crashes involving cars at this speed."[0] "The GHSA reported that the number of pedestrian deaths involving SUVs increased by 50 percent from 2013 through 2017, while the number of pedestrian deaths caused by passenger cars increased by 30 percent over that same period. That reflects booming sales of SUVs and the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to survive the impact of an SUV."[1] [0] https://brandonlegalgroup.com/iihs-study-suvs-present-a-higher-pedestrian-accident-data-than-cars/ https://brandonlegalgroup.com/iihs-study-suvs-present-a-high... [1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestrian-safety-crisis-deaths-ghsa/2993321002/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestri...
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Study size of n=79, amazing.
  - DoingIsLearning 6y ago
    I assumed you asked in good faith so I will try to ignore the unnecessary sarcasm. I hope a Cochrane meta-analysis meets your evidence based statistical standards.[0][1] It's physics, a higher front-end means primary blunt force trauma to the chest and head (specially for children and cyclists), were by primary we mean the first and highest force trauma, and by chest and head we mean trauma to vital organs. I am not judging if this type of vehicle is your preference but demanding scientific rigor without accepting the physics involved just feels like a cognitive dissonance. I am not arguing that higher front-end vehicles cause accidents, I am arguing that pedestrian are less likely to survive upon impact compared to other vehicles. The only reason these vehicles are not banned from city centres is purely because they are a marketing and economical success not because of lack of evidence on their dangers. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20146143/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20146143/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33147075/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33147075/