5 ms·

Why do you think that increasing performance in itself bad for the environment?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cjrp 6y ago
Not so much increasing performance, but what's required for that, e.g. the extra weight of the battery and motors to provide ~10km of electric-only range on the McLaren P1.
crispyporkbites 6y ago
Faster you go the more fuel you burn per mile above around 50-60mph depending on the car The faster you accelerate the more you’re going to braking to slow back down again (unless you’re accelerating onto open roads) Performance cars are more likely to be driven by people who don’t care about the environment and drive as such. Tires wear out faster ...
- kortilla 6y ago
  > Performance cars are more likely to be driven by people who don’t care about the environment and drive as such. I think the success of Tesla says otherwise. There are lots of us who enjoy performance cars who care about emissions. Even someone who drives an Audi v8 car is doing less damage than the single person cruising in a huge truck/suv.
  - crispyporkbites 6y ago
    It’s relative- the high performance Tesla’s are worse for the environment than the low performance ones. EVs are a different category to ICE cars so comparing across them is strange
    - r00fus 6y ago
      This is quite silly - a Tesla X or e-Hummer are still better for the environment than any ICE car.
      - samoa42 6y ago
        i doubt that very much
        quotemstr 6y ago
        Are we supposed to accept your profession of doubt as a form of evidence or argumentation?
        samoa42 6y ago
        no
      - markvdb 6y ago
        That probably holds true in case they have the same usage patterns. Does your theory still hold if I drive only 2000km/year in an older car versus a Tesla X or e-Hummer? I don't pretend to have the answer to that question, but there is an environmental cost to producing a car too...
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Most people buying new vehicles have to (well they don't have to but it's the reasonable thing to do) consult their spouse. This is why certain outlier models are so popular. They facilitate "everyone wins" compromises. One person wants a practical crossover because that's what is most practical for the situation. The other wants a fun convertible. They buy a 4dr Wrangler because it's both. Everyone goes home happy. Same thing happens with Tesla. One person wants to buy a fuel sipping subcompact because that's what makes practical sense for the situation. The other wants a high performance sedan. Tesla checks both boxes so that's what they get. Everyone goes home happy. Edit: I know you all are recoiling in horror at the thought of having to run your car purchasing decisions by the other decision maker in your household but if you're gonna click the WrongThink(TM) button why don't you at least humor me and tell me why I'm so wrong.
kortilla 6y ago
If it’s just a way to gain the ability to consume even more energy per launch from a stop light, it’s bad. And when most ICE setups (including hybrids that use electric to boost ICE peak output) talk about increasing performance, it’s about acceleration, not efficiency.
leipert 6y ago
Because we don’t need to increase performance, if we think if performance as horse powers and speed. Cars are fast enough, even too fast for private vehicles. Living in Germany it is quite ridiculous that we don’t have speed limits on certain parts of the Autobahn, nobody needs to drive 200 km/h. You won’t get faster from A to B, it’s dangerous, it’s stressful, you need more energy. If you want to race, go on a race track. I assume it even costs us more to maintain roads so that you are able to drive more than 140 km/h.
- pritovido 6y ago
  The great thing about Autobahns is freedom. If I travel in Spain, the speed limit is 120km/h. Now they have removed the 20 kms/h extra you could do for overtaking other cars. It is ludicrous. Everybody goes over the limit, and hence everybody goes against the law, and everybody could be fined with 300 euros, like my father 1 month ago. In cities, they are putting limits under 30km/h. Politicians love the fines because it is an extra tax of an extra billion euros nobody controls.
  - usrusr 6y ago
    The great thing isn't freedom, it's that the huge speed differences between cars help a lot with keeping drivers focused. People drive instead of just waiting out the time until their exit pops up on the nav. This effect has quite a bit of inertia so that even the speed-limited parts benefit from it so that a blanket speed limit would likely make the already limited sections less safe, after adapting to the relative ease of blanket speed limits. Chances are that overall safety would still increase, but I'm not sure of that (short term it would definitely increase, but that effect could quickly erode as people get used to it).
  - crispyporkbites 6y ago
    Reducing the speed limit saves lives and reduces overall traffic as people switch to alternative modes of transport. Do you object to seatbelt laws under the premise of "Freedom"? What about car safety standards? Isn't it more "Free" if we can make whatever car I want and sell it to whomever wants to buy it, even if it kills millions every year? The truth is that we need to look at improving society holistically, which means implementing and designing society in a way that benefits humankind over the long term. Civilization isn't very "Free" but it's a trade off we make to live in a fair and progressive society, and allows us to combat things like covid, natural disasters, growing populations and other challenges that face the human race.
corty 6y ago
The usual argument basically boils down to "gluttony and pride are deadly sins". You shall only consume/have/want the necessary minimum, any more is morally suspect, even absent objectively apparent problems.
- quotemstr 6y ago
  "The puritan hated bear baiting, not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators"
quotemstr 6y ago
It's kind of funny how comments like this get downvoted into oblivion. Too many ideologically-motivated HN users have access to the downvote button and they use it to suppress anything that threatens certain sacred narratives. This place is a lot less open to intellectual curiosity than it says on the tin.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cjrp 6y ago

Not so much increasing performance, but what's required for that, e.g. the extra weight of the battery and motors to provide ~10km of electric-only range on the McLaren P1.

crispyporkbites 6y ago

Faster you go the more fuel you burn per mile above around 50-60mph depending on the car The faster you accelerate the more you’re going to braking to slow back down again (unless you’re accelerating onto open roads) Performance cars are more likely to be driven by people who don’t care about the environment and drive as such. Tires wear out faster ...

kortilla 6y ago
> Performance cars are more likely to be driven by people who don’t care about the environment and drive as such. I think the success of Tesla says otherwise. There are lots of us who enjoy performance cars who care about emissions. Even someone who drives an Audi v8 car is doing less damage than the single person cruising in a huge truck/suv.
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  It’s relative- the high performance Tesla’s are worse for the environment than the low performance ones. EVs are a different category to ICE cars so comparing across them is strange
  - r00fus 6y ago
    This is quite silly - a Tesla X or e-Hummer are still better for the environment than any ICE car.
    - samoa42 6y ago
      i doubt that very much
      - quotemstr 6y ago
        Are we supposed to accept your profession of doubt as a form of evidence or argumentation?
        samoa42 6y ago
        no
    - markvdb 6y ago
      That probably holds true in case they have the same usage patterns. Does your theory still hold if I drive only 2000km/year in an older car versus a Tesla X or e-Hummer? I don't pretend to have the answer to that question, but there is an environmental cost to producing a car too...
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Most people buying new vehicles have to (well they don't have to but it's the reasonable thing to do) consult their spouse. This is why certain outlier models are so popular. They facilitate "everyone wins" compromises. One person wants a practical crossover because that's what is most practical for the situation. The other wants a fun convertible. They buy a 4dr Wrangler because it's both. Everyone goes home happy. Same thing happens with Tesla. One person wants to buy a fuel sipping subcompact because that's what makes practical sense for the situation. The other wants a high performance sedan. Tesla checks both boxes so that's what they get. Everyone goes home happy. Edit: I know you all are recoiling in horror at the thought of having to run your car purchasing decisions by the other decision maker in your household but if you're gonna click the WrongThink(TM) button why don't you at least humor me and tell me why I'm so wrong.

kortilla 6y ago

If it’s just a way to gain the ability to consume even more energy per launch from a stop light, it’s bad. And when most ICE setups (including hybrids that use electric to boost ICE peak output) talk about increasing performance, it’s about acceleration, not efficiency.

leipert 6y ago

Because we don’t need to increase performance, if we think if performance as horse powers and speed. Cars are fast enough, even too fast for private vehicles. Living in Germany it is quite ridiculous that we don’t have speed limits on certain parts of the Autobahn, nobody needs to drive 200 km/h. You won’t get faster from A to B, it’s dangerous, it’s stressful, you need more energy. If you want to race, go on a race track. I assume it even costs us more to maintain roads so that you are able to drive more than 140 km/h.

pritovido 6y ago
The great thing about Autobahns is freedom. If I travel in Spain, the speed limit is 120km/h. Now they have removed the 20 kms/h extra you could do for overtaking other cars. It is ludicrous. Everybody goes over the limit, and hence everybody goes against the law, and everybody could be fined with 300 euros, like my father 1 month ago. In cities, they are putting limits under 30km/h. Politicians love the fines because it is an extra tax of an extra billion euros nobody controls.
- usrusr 6y ago
  The great thing isn't freedom, it's that the huge speed differences between cars help a lot with keeping drivers focused. People drive instead of just waiting out the time until their exit pops up on the nav. This effect has quite a bit of inertia so that even the speed-limited parts benefit from it so that a blanket speed limit would likely make the already limited sections less safe, after adapting to the relative ease of blanket speed limits. Chances are that overall safety would still increase, but I'm not sure of that (short term it would definitely increase, but that effect could quickly erode as people get used to it).
- crispyporkbites 6y ago
  Reducing the speed limit saves lives and reduces overall traffic as people switch to alternative modes of transport. Do you object to seatbelt laws under the premise of "Freedom"? What about car safety standards? Isn't it more "Free" if we can make whatever car I want and sell it to whomever wants to buy it, even if it kills millions every year? The truth is that we need to look at improving society holistically, which means implementing and designing society in a way that benefits humankind over the long term. Civilization isn't very "Free" but it's a trade off we make to live in a fair and progressive society, and allows us to combat things like covid, natural disasters, growing populations and other challenges that face the human race.

corty 6y ago

The usual argument basically boils down to "gluttony and pride are deadly sins". You shall only consume/have/want the necessary minimum, any more is morally suspect, even absent objectively apparent problems.

quotemstr 6y ago
"The puritan hated bear baiting, not because it gave pain to the bear, but because it gave pleasure to the spectators"

quotemstr 6y ago

It's kind of funny how comments like this get downvoted into oblivion. Too many ideologically-motivated HN users have access to the downvote button and they use it to suppress anything that threatens certain sacred narratives. This place is a lot less open to intellectual curiosity than it says on the tin.