8 ms·

Bit off-topic perhaps, but he SUV popularity remains baffling to me especially in this age. That's maybe because I'm looking from the wrong angle or I'm just wr

• maxerickson 6y ago
  In the US fuel prices are low enough to just not worry about the difference in fuel consumption. Especially for people shopping for the $40,000+ models. Several thousands gallons over the life of the vehicle or so.
  • rob74 6y ago
    Yeah, but this article is about Europe, and SUVs make up over 40% of new registrations. Mind you, the typical "European" SUVs, while bigger than other European cars, are midgets compared to what someone from the States would call an SUV.
    • wsc981 6y ago
      I don't think many people in Europe really prefer SUVs, perhaps it's just the best type of electric car that is on offer or maybe the one with the biggest subsidies. Of course I speak from my point of view as someone who was raised in The Netherlands. In The Netherlands I never saw many SUVs on the road. Elon Musk is actually contemplating [0] to produce smaller EVs for the European market and I think those could become very popular indeed. Smaller cars are generally just nicer to use in compact crowded cities. --- [0] https://electrek.co/2020/11/24/elon-musk-tesla-hatchback-electric-model-designed-in-europe/ https://electrek.co/2020/11/24/elon-musk-tesla-hatchback-ele...
      • simias 6y ago
        >I don't think many people in Europe really prefer SUV Oh I think you're wrong, there's definitely a significant market for people who prefer SUVs, electric or not. This is not new. After all most of these European urban SUV are really neither S or U, they're just SUV shaped. I remember watching a French TV show about cars maybe 15 years ago where they were talking about the growing popularity of SUVs, and back then diesel was the norm.
      • dzhiurgis 6y ago
        There's 10s of small EV's you can already buy for nearly half price of Model 3 in EU. They probably can make it cheap enough, especially if it's made in EU to skirt tariffs, but by then there will 100s of competitors. Right now you can already buy 35k euro SUV when Model Y is something like 60k.
    • simias 6y ago
      That's very true, there's a shop on the outskirts of Paris that specializes in selling import American cars (a booming business apparently) and never having been to the USA I was genuinely amazed at the scale of the vehicles. It's the first time I saw a "car" that was basically as tall as I am, and I'm not small. Everything truly is bigger in America. Since then started paying attention to the size of the vehicles in American-produced media and I realized how absolutely huge cars can be over there. I was also remembered of an HN thread years ago where people were commenting on the failure of Smart cars in the US. Many Americans were basically arguing that the car was too small to feel safe in traffic, which sounded a bit silly to me, but now that I know that every other car in the US is closer in size to a tank it makes a lot of sense.
• jhoechtl 6y ago
  I can only speak for myself. I have a second home in a remote area with a very bad gravel road. In winter, when there is snow, I was frequently unable to get there. Then I bought a SUV. It's a 4WD with and ample trunk. Now I can use my property to my liking according to my job time constraints rather then weather conditions. But I sense your sub-sonic tone. I think the vast majority of SUV owners lives in a city with perfect snow removal in winter (if there even is snow at all) which hardly justifies owning such an ineffective car.
  • scoot 6y ago
    So your justification for owning an inefficient car is that you have a second home? I don't even know where to start with that.
    • MrBuddyCasino 6y ago
      He gave a practical reason. Take a second to introspect if your moral outrage might be envy in disguise. It is very easy to rationalize these things and dress them up nicer than they really are.
      • scoot 6y ago
        Sorry, but no. There's no practical reason to own two homes.
    • abdulmuhaimin 6y ago
      ...with a very bad gravel road second or first or gazilionth home doesnt even matter.
      • scoot 6y ago
        > second or first or gazilionth home doesnt even matter Let's try scaling that to everyone on the planet, shall we?
    • tomp 6y ago
      People like you are the reason why "green" & "sustainability" get a bad rep. "Why even enjoy anything? Why even drive? Why even go on vacations? Why even eat meat? Why even have kids? Why even socialize? Why even live outside of the matrix instead of having all your entertainment & nutrients delivered directly to your brain/veins? Why even live?" inb4 "no arguments": parent post isn't very heavy on arguments either, it's basically just passive-aggressive moralizing.
• eganist 6y ago
  I'm a huge fan of sports cars and cars that just plainly handle better on flat roads, but having a sports car that I truly enjoy driving versus my other car (a decent, recent SUV), the advantages with SUVs pretty quickly become apparent. - Smoother ride over worse roads, especially under-maintained roads - An extension of that point: more travel options. Dirt road? Sure, and the SUV probably won't get as dirty. Gravel? I can probably take it without worrying. Need to clear a curb? Doable. - Better visibility, and that's even after factoring in everyone buying an SUV - Marginal efficiency hit (like 10-15%), which most people ignore with electric SUVs anyway, but even with gas or diesel it's just not enough to stop people from buying anymore compared to when SUVs truly guzzled gas. As an example, I had a BMW from a number of years ago that my SUV today outpaces in average gas mileage despite unchanged driving habits and better engine output as well as increased weight for the SUV. People are essentially offsetting engine efficiency gains by buying more car. - More car to absorb impact in the event of a crash. I can see why people buy them even before egos start to get involved around just how big the cars can be.
  • zaarn 6y ago
    - More car to kill people with in the event of an accident Always keep in mind that accidents may involve a person on the other side.
    • eganist 6y ago
      > - More car to kill people with in the event of an accident > Always keep in mind that accidents may involve a person on the other side. This is self-negated with moves by the broader population towards SUVs. The end result is that SUV on SUV crashes will simply include more mass (structured to crumple more effectively as well) protecting occupants in all cars involved. Your car buying decision should be strictly around your own safety. Your driving habits must factor in both your safety as well as the safety of others; if someone else drives inappropriately and causes a crash and their wellbeing is impaired or concluded as a result of both their driving habits as well as their use of a less safe car, the fault shouldn't be on you for having a car that's safer for you to drive. Perhaps that's what you meant to convey when you edited my quote.
• olalonde 6y ago
  It handles better the road in bad conditions (rain, snow, wind, bad road, etc.) and it's more comfortable (you feel the road less).
• helloooooooo 6y ago
  If you live in a mild winter climate, sure SUV popularity may be baffling. If you have to experience to winter of, say, Montreal, then an SUV/Pickup is a bit more justifieable.
• markpeppers 6y ago
  An SUV typically handles better than (and is cooler looking than) a van, yet will still comfortably carry a family if that’s your life. Older folks with creaky joints like the height, so they don’t have to crouch into a sedan with its lower seats.
  • stinos 6y ago
    That last one is interesting, but the first argument works just as well for cars like Volkswagen Sharan etc which are also very popular and given all things perhaps cheaper?
  • saiya-jin 6y ago
    A big wagon is still a better car - roomier, drives better than comparable SUV (lower centre of mass). If old/injured folks would be the only ones getting them, I would understand it. But that's not the case.
• vanilla_nut 6y ago
  As far as justifying SUVs go... if you're looking for a nice car, subcompact SUVs cost pretty much the same as sedans while offering a lot more trunk space and nice features like electric seat adjustment, nicer center consoles, etc. that might not always be available on sedans. In my case, my decision was made by the thousands of poorly calibrated aftermarket LED headlights I regularly see in the US. They blind me all the time in a sedan, but in an SUV I'm just high enough up that I usually don't get totally blinded.
• hcho 6y ago
  I bet a lot of the owners are parents of toddlers. Getting a child in an out of a childseat is a great deal easier with SUVs. The extra cost in fuel is negligible for most people because they don't do mega miles.
• jcfrei 6y ago
  > why does this type of car thrive so well? Cars around you on the road get bigger so you feel more uncomfortable in your small car (just like some feel uncomfortable driving close to big trucks) so your next car will be a bigger one. I think this kind of anxiety is the reason for most people.
  • Frenchgeek 6y ago
    They should try a 2CV for a short while, then their small car would be just fine... (Fun car but the lack of power can get you in dangerous situations, like when people don't expect you slowing down severely going uphill. Noisy too.)
  • corty 6y ago
    Also, due to increased thickness of doors and frames for safety, car interior space has shrunk over the last decades. So you need a bigger car if you want the same amount of interior space for your head/feet/arms/groceries.
    • sib 6y ago
      And also (if relevant to you), regulations for children's car seats have appeared and increased so that, if you need to carry three kids, you pretty much need an SUV (or minivan) to do it.
    • dzhiurgis 6y ago
      Good point. In my crossover my knees are pretty much always rammed into dash and I'm only 6'2". Pretty sure there's no airbags there too.
  • lazyjones 6y ago
    Streets and garages don't get bigger though, so larger cars are increasingly uncomfortable to drive. I've wanted a Model X for a long time, but it's so much wider than the Model S that it'd take significantly more effort to park in my garage and to maneuver through Vienna's narrow and busy streets. One good reason to drive SUVs in cities are the bad roads, sometimes worsened by speed bumps by the way.
• tF73d78kq8t3R6n 6y ago
  I drive a RAM 2500 with a Cummins 6.7l diesel engine. Perhaps I can help provide some perspective. It’s a uniquely useful vehicle whose utility a regular SUV will never hope to approach. It’s my daily driver and grocery getter. My neighbors and I “time share” a boat in that they pay for the care and feeding of the boat, and I take care of shifting the boat when it’s on land. I never pay to have anything delivered. If it’s small enough to fit in the truck’s bed, I throw it in. If it’s bigger, I rent a trailer, and then sky’s the limit. I moved across the country with it using a 12’ long rented trailer, and it was a breeze. I carry my kayaks in the back - just throw them in, strap them down, and go to the water. Not a week passes without this truck enabling me to haul, tow, or drag something heavy or awkward. My wife’s car broke down, so I towed it using my truck and a rented car trailer to the repair shop. If I had a penny for each time I’d helped pull someone out of a ditch, I’d have enough to purchase a new set of recovery straps. Let’s talk about some difficulties. It’s a temperamental beast at times. I live in the South, so I don’t have the “cold start” problem, but I don’t have an engine block heater either. So whenever I travel north, I have to take care. Haven’t had any real issues yet - the truck’s remote starter seems to fend for itself - but I’m wary of it. Repairs can be expensive, since all components are commercial-grade and are priced accordingly. Maintenance is more expensive, but it’s a much more rare event than in a gasser. Parking in an urban environment can be a pain. Parallel parking requires skill, and there are some multistory parking structures in which I will not fit. A little bit of upfront planning seems to alleviate these problems. The truck is loud, but you only really hear it when driving slowly between two large buildings. My neighbors don’t complain, especially since they benefit from it so much. Oh, and I can smoke most other vehicles when doing a little Saturday night racing off a stop light.
  • stinos 6y ago
    I completely understand this, but your RAM and your use for it is nothing like the 40% of cars sold in Europe (apart from the 'just throw it in' perhaps but that goes for other types as well).
• theluketaylor 6y ago
  With all the modern safety regulations, sedans and hatchbacks need high belt lines that dramatically reduces the greenhouse. There is also a trend for huge wheels that make for harsh rides since tires have so little sidewall. SUVs and crossovers have more tire sidewall and offer a much better ride around cities filled with pot holes and crumbing roads. The higher H-point (hip placement) means climbing up and in rather than having to lower yourself down, a much easier operation. The belt line is still high, but your seat is also higher, so greenhouse and visibility is better. Being father off the ground reduces the sensation of speed, so more timid drivers feel more confident. Car markers also get much higher margins from SUV/crossovers, so they are pushing them hard. All the deals are for these big vehicles, so that's what people are buying. Modern vehicles are so much more aerodynamic, so there isn't that much penalty for a crossover. They also share platforms with their sedan and traditional hatchback cousins, so there isn't even that much of a weight penalty. Tesla Model 3 and Y are the same vehicle underneath, and while Y pays a range penalty, it's pretty small at ~7% EPA.
  • globular-toast 6y ago
    > pot holes and crumbing roads The sad thing is it's the SUVs that make the roads crumble. It's extremely noticeable in the UK. The roads don't last anywhere near as long as they used to because of everyone driving these heavy things around.
    • theluketaylor 6y ago
      Road damage goes up with the 4th power of axle weight, so trucks do far, far more damage than anything else.
      • globular-toast 6y ago
        Trucks (lorries) have always been on the road, though. They don't generally drive down country roads every day and stick to the motorways where possible.
    • samoa42 6y ago
• lumberjack 6y ago
  It's a psychology thing. People feel less if they are sharing a road with somebody who is sitting way higher than them. Also big cars feel (and probably are) safer (for the occupants). So now there is a sort of race to for SUV adoption.
  • simias 6y ago
    I don't have an SUV but I ride a motorcycle and it's true that being able to see over other vehicles is pretty nice, I feel oddly boxed in when I'm driving a car. But of course it's just an arms race at this point, if everybody has an SUV then the same problem occurs. That being said, driving a small "urban" car in many european cities can be challenging (and parking even more so), I can't imagine that having a big SUV would be more pleasant overall if you live in a city.
  • hawski 6y ago
    Higher cars roll over much easier, which is very dangerous, but safety is also a feeling.
    • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      With modern roof strength requirements, seatbelts and airbags this is a red herring. Rollovers these days tend to result in everyone walking away.
      • Acinyx 6y ago
        Especially as all these "mild" hybrids have enough of a battery to move the centre of mass so far down that they are lower than older sedans. This is why Teslas won so many safety awards at the start: they were pretty much unrollable in the tests as they existed at the time.
• roel_v 6y ago
  I drive one, in the Netherlands, where the climate and road conditions are such that those are not a factor at all. The only reason I drive it is because it's so comfortable to sit higher up, and to have a better view of the road that way. It's comfortable to get in and out of (I'm 40 years old, work out several times a week, no mobility issues whatsoever - I still find it more comfortable). This is the second SUV I have, before that I had a tiny car and thought the same as you do, it was only once I started driving one that I started to see why people like them. I don't think for transitioning to EV the form factor will be the problem. BMW will start delivering the first EV versions of my current car (X3) next year. For me, charging it where I live (city center) is the problem. Every time I see my neighbour roll his extension cord across the sidewalk I think 'no way I'm going to do that'.
  • danieldk 6y ago
    Not intended in a nasty way, just factual: The only reason I drive it is because it's so comfortable to sit higher up, and to have a better view of the road that way. And thereby blocking the view of 'regular' cars.
    • roel_v 6y ago
      Only to a degree I think - when you're sitting in a lower car, you can't view over other cars anyway. I guess you can see through other cars' windows, which is harder when the other cars are higher, like for me when I'm between several trucks. I don't recall that as being a 'problem' as such from when I drove a lower car. Maybe other people experience it differently.
      • maccard 6y ago
        Any junction where there's a lane on your outside, a person in a "normal" sized car is unable to see through into the junction. For some reason, all of the traffic lights installed in my city now don't have a set of lights at the far side of the junction visible, so there is a fairly large window where you can be stuck with no visibility of the traffic lights in 2 lanes of traffic if you might have a filter light. There's also rear view mirrors (big vehicle takes up more of my window, so I can't see if there's a bike coming)
• sanp 6y ago
  For me, the main reason is kids. It is a LOT easier to get kids in and out of an SUV. A minivan would have been even better (only convenience wise) but that is a bridge too far for me.
• saiya-jin 6y ago
  Same here, asked this couple of times and the responses from pro-SUV were mostly for emotional reasons, not rational. Bear in mind that there are proper SUVs for proper terrain, then wannaby suv/crossovers/whatever which don't handle rough terrain well and are just not good cars overall. Also you can have a small crappy dacia sedan or audi a6 all road type. The reasons pro SUV often boil down to: - I need to see more - indication that person isn't a good driver to have this need - my older bmw is super low and I see no problem there, sensible drive makes much more difference, but new/bad drivers want to buy extra safety feeling - people being sheepish, so they buy what is fashionate because others have it (although physics often disagrees its a good choice) - the "I drive rough terrain" - which often boils down to going to ski resort in the winter, you don't need SUV for that, not even 4x4 if roads are OK (which they 99% are in Europe at least) - people think only SUV can have 4x4, or only SUV are for rough terrain - marketing win for manufacturers Disadvantages are numerous: - more consumption, often higher maintenance (bigger tires) - mentioned Audi allroad or similar gets exactly same job done as usual SUV - since they are tall, they are pretty small inside, smaller trunk - much worse driving properties due to higher centre of mass - rolling risk is much higher in SUV due again to higher centre of mass - subjective but within same brand, SUVs are plain fugly as hell, still waiting for a single one I could even remotely call a pretty car Yeah, I am definitely not a fan of SUV. Between some Audi Q7 and Audi A6 combi allroad, A6 wins in all possible aspects. Its also much more fun and safer car to drive.
• Dumblydorr 6y ago
  People simply prefer the SUVs. They ride higher, people like that elevated feeling. They also give the added space, which is a selling point. They are undeniably trendy, and gas is super cheap, 2.20 per gallon here, so not high at all historically.
  • asmosoinio 6y ago
    USD? Compare that to 1.40 € per liter, that's about 6.20 USD/gallon. A regular price in EU.
  • bluetomcat 6y ago
    A proper diesel estate car like an MB E220d has a more usable cargo area than the typical SUV, rides comfortably and efficiently on the highway consuming less than 5 liters per 100 kilometers (fuel tank range is over 1200 kilometers), and has state-of-the-art safety technologies. In comparison, a SUV just gives you that extra confidence that no matter the weather conditions, you'll make it to your end destination because of the increased ride height, bigger tyres and 4WD systems. For most people that may be 2 or 3 days during the year, and the rest of the time they are paying dearly for this inefficiency.
    • soared 6y ago
      A sedan definitely does not have more cargo space than an SUV.
      • bluetomcat 6y ago
        I was talking about the E-Class estate, called the "T-Modell" in Germany: https://imgur.com/f1yksSW https://imgur.com/f1yksSW
        • Acinyx 6y ago
          Ah true, but as someone that might buy a (used) car in the next few years: trendiness & freshness do play into this as estate cars do lose points in my book for their "old-school" look as it was the type of car people had when I was a kid (and I am nearly 40). So that together with the higher ride height, which makes getting kids in and out easier and almost no extra cost makes the SUV more likely to win than a similarly specced estate. (and please keep in mind a "SUV" in Europe is not really the same as "SUV" in the states).
• strulovich 6y ago
  Interesting thought about SUVs: The first few cars were actually quite tall, so were carriages for many years. If you consider that, low sedans that make it harder to easily get in and out of the car for many people, are the abnormality, and the classical adult man high shape will keep increasing in popularity as cost and gas becomes less of an issue for more people.
• throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Households that used to have a minivan or pickup and two commuter cars now have a crossover or SUV and a sedan. As the prices of vehicles go up consumers are forced to pick more generalist vehicles because having a 10yo pickup that you drive once a week isn't a financially justifiable option anymore.
• somerandomqaguy 6y ago
  I imagine that you're younger (20's to 30's) and relatively healthy. If so, humor me for a moment. Imagine that you're wearing a pair of ski boots with thumbtacks packed in around the ankles. You shift your weight too far forward or bend it, the thumb tacks cut into your ankle. Not to mention now they're super stiff; you can barely bend them at all without the tacks digging hard into the skin. Now imagine getting into a Honda Accord sedan. You have to bend down to get into the car, so your back is going to lean over and your knees are going to bend down...naturally causing your ankles to have to bend forward. Except ski boots and thumbtacks; Ow!! To get in you have to more or less turn your back to the car, splay your legs out and kinda fall back with your arms holding the sides of the frame of the car. Not a big deal but now imagine doing this times a day, every day, for the next 5 to 8 years. And I haven't even talked about trying to get out. In an SUV at the right height, you turn your back, brace your butt atop the seat, lift your legs up and pivot into the car. No fuss. Barely any bending needed. There's plenty of older people out there with chronic issues in their backs, spines, hips, knees, and/or ankles. Thing is, older people that are later in their careers tend to be the ones with the most purchasing power, and don't mind trading a slightly higher operating cost for more comfort.
  • stinos 6y ago
    Thanks for the info but same remark as for other comments: we're talking 40% here, so while this is a possible reason for a part of that it cannot possibly explain that number entirely, I think. I'm not that young, but my grandma has the exact problems you talk about and she has a bad time dealing with low cars indeed.
    • Ygg2 6y ago
      I think they also offer a slightly better vantage point. Since your driver seat is a bit up compared to everyone else, you might see a bit more of the road. Also if you travel a lot outside of city, they make much more sense.
    • yread 6y ago
      In the Netherlands more than 50% of new cars are bought by 55+ year olds https://www.statista.com/statistics/678464/distribution-of-new-car-buyers-in-the-netherlands-by-age/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/678464/distribution-of-n...
• anonuser123456 6y ago
  >but he SUV popularity remains baffling to me especially in this age. Kids, stuff.
  • stinos 6y ago
    The decade(s) before SUVs had cars big enough to pack all that, I grew up in one. Seeing all other comments I think it's going to be a combination of reasons which make actually a difference with other cars and cannot be found in that combination (height seems a big factor, handling (though mainly the bigger wheels), safety, idea that it can do more, perhaps looks) and marketing etc.
• greesil 6y ago
  How do you feel about minivans?
  • stinos 6y ago
    You mean weight/drag related? That's tough to guess i.e. if you take something with roughly the same features and internal volume as an SUV it could be lighter (not necessarily), it's wheelbase is normally lower which helps but on the other hand some of them don't look very aerodynamic for the rest. Should be possible to make them as safe I guess.
• anonfornoreason 6y ago
  A few reasons. Note: I say this as a big outdoor recreator, so consider that bias. 1) the US has experienced a massive boom in outdoor recreation over last five years. All west coast campgrounds booked out months in advance (if they accept reservations), ski destinations never been busier, etc. west coast culture has a large outdoor recreation aspect, even if most people only do one or two outdoorsy things a year, their self perception is they are “outdoorsy”. Multiple neighbors have suvs so they can occasionally go camping. Could easily do it in a car but then you’d have to have a self perception that’s a closer match to lazy city dweller 2) external image. Related to above, I have observed coworkers purchase new cars and the perception of the car was important. One particular example was a coworker who got a minivan for family. Wife was miserable for six months because she was worried about being perceived as a boring mom. Finally took a 5k hit and traded it in on a new Subaru. They drive 4K miles a year, never go camping, but wanted to fit that west coast image of active family. 3) they are just more comfortable and can fit more stuff. You can get by without a truck and still haul bags of soil etc. there are some small hatchbacks that can work for this (loved my old Honda Fit, amazing storage for tiny car), but a hatchback suv makes this much easier 4) actually use it as intended. I consider this the least common reason, but some people load up their AWD suv with four people and snow shoe or cross country ski gear and get out every weekend. You can do this in a car (I’ve done it in all sorts of vehicles) but you are more likely to run into issues with a car. I’ve had tiny cars, compact suvs, full size suvs, a van, and now a truck, and it’s hard to imagine not having an suv because they are so versatile if you recreate. Throw a topper on your roof rack, get a set of snow tires, and you can go almost anywhere in any conditions.
• fulafel 6y ago
  Most cars are bought used. A new car is not very economically sound purchase decision unless you are pretty well off. The buyers of these new cars don't care much about fuel economy or CO2 emissions, and want a lot of car for their splurge investment. So the makeup of the vehicle population is chosen by a relatively irrational and/or affluent minority of car users.
• ako 6y ago
  I drive one for the internal space. Used to drive an MPV, now an SUV, which is basically an MPV, but slightly higher on the wheels. Lots of room for the kids, plus 700+ liter of boot for sports gear.
• usrusr 6y ago
  It's simply an arms race. People feel threatened by bigger cars so they want to keep up.
• alkonaut 6y ago
  Because it doesn’t matter. Fuel consumption is perhaps 10% or less of my cost per km. If that fuel consumption goes up or down 10% that means my driving cost goes up or down 1%. My 60L tank takes me 1100km. I don’t care if more streamlining or lower height would take it 1200km. 1100km is at least two toilet breaks anyway. So I’ll pick the practical car I want/need and don’t care too much about consumption so long as it’s reasonable. I wanted a bit higher clearance and 4WD (and I use it too - but rarely). Last time around it was a jacked up wagon and I don’t think I’ll buy an SUV because the 4WD wagon is so much better at everything plus it’s cheaper. With an EV, this equation of cost and range goes out the window. The difference between 300km and 400km range is huge.
  • ajmurmann 6y ago
    This is exactly why we need the negative externality of emissions be properly priced into the fuel price. It's appalling how cheap fuel is, especially in the US.
    • alkonaut 6y ago
      I pay some of the highest fuel prices in the world but it’s still cheap per km when the car/service/insurance/taxes/etc is so much more expensive. If prices were twice as high it wouldn’t change the equation much.
• apta 6y ago
  Safety (larger size and heavier weight), higher up seating position (also means better safety since you can see farther out), better ground clearance in general (good for places with snow for example), good cargo capacity and/or 3 row seating (though the latter are available in mini-vans, but they're not "cool" and are not generally as capable - e.g. most don't come with AWD).