4 ms·

in Italy it costs to me about 300eur every month for work life to potentially have partial coverage at some point in the future if something happens. I suspect

in Italy it costs to me about 300eur every month for work life to potentially have partial coverage at some point in the future if something happens. I suspect your 3000 cost is skimping on a lot of taxes that are subsidizing the actual costs.

speedgoose 6y ago
If something happens to you, or your partner, your mom, your children, your friends, on even your neighbors that you don't really care about but don't want them to struggle because it's nice to live in a society with healthy people around you.
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  I didn't try to pass a moral judgment on the issue and I like the socialized system we have, for the most part. but confronting cost without taxes is trite and tiresome. I'm going to pay north of 150k eur to subsidize healthcare thorough my life, and being in the upper tax brackets (which start at some ridiculously low point) I also have to copay each service on top of already being paying more taxes for it. and when I see the "but ambulance rides are almost free here in x european country!" and the likes well no, they aren't, it's people that just didn't factor the actual costs in, because it's sunk in other taxes.
ryanbrunner 6y ago
Sure, but taxes are spread across the entire population. Insurance sort of kind of theoretically works like this (maybe substitute "time" for "people" that you're spreading the risk over), but the insurance industry are always going to be experts in making sure that no one is coming out ahead on that system. I'd rather have the entire population subsidize a small amount for everyone's health than randomly make a subset of the population destitute for what's often complete random bad luck. Secondly, if you take a look at non-insured prices for health care in countries with universal health care (for the most part, the "universal" part is limited to residents and visitors still have to pay), the prices are still significantly lower than they are in the U.S. Having a single payer for insurance and strong regulations over health care enable things like price controls, which makes perfect sense in a health care context since it's never really going to work as a free market (emergency care needs to be treated immediately without the ability to "shop around", the care required isn't always evident at intake, doctors refuse to talk or consider financial aspects, etc.)
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  I know. but that's not an excuse to pass or accept a wrong information ("y only cost x to me in this country") as correct.
  - lumberjack 6y ago
    You are right that you also have to include taxes, but you also have to account for the fact that taxes are dependent on income and coverage is always guaranteed. So it is not the same as paying for a service. It is something else.
  - ryanbrunner 6y ago
    I think there's a real difference though when the cost is "baked in" via taxes or something else. If a doctor's visit has the potential to cost you hundreds or even thousands of dollars, unless something is really serious, chances are you're going to avoid going. In a system where costs are paid through taxes, the disincentive to see a doctor is eliminated. That maybe has some negative effects (going to urgent care for relatively minor problems), but I think it has real benefits in terms of preventative care. In terms of a countries overall finances, it balances out (not entirely - see my previous point), but in terms of affect on behaviour it has a huge effect (in addition to balancing out the burden that I mentioned before).

speedgoose 6y ago

If something happens to you, or your partner, your mom, your children, your friends, on even your neighbors that you don't really care about but don't want them to struggle because it's nice to live in a society with healthy people around you.

LoSboccacc 6y ago
I didn't try to pass a moral judgment on the issue and I like the socialized system we have, for the most part. but confronting cost without taxes is trite and tiresome. I'm going to pay north of 150k eur to subsidize healthcare thorough my life, and being in the upper tax brackets (which start at some ridiculously low point) I also have to copay each service on top of already being paying more taxes for it. and when I see the "but ambulance rides are almost free here in x european country!" and the likes well no, they aren't, it's people that just didn't factor the actual costs in, because it's sunk in other taxes.

ryanbrunner 6y ago

Sure, but taxes are spread across the entire population. Insurance sort of kind of theoretically works like this (maybe substitute "time" for "people" that you're spreading the risk over), but the insurance industry are always going to be experts in making sure that no one is coming out ahead on that system. I'd rather have the entire population subsidize a small amount for everyone's health than randomly make a subset of the population destitute for what's often complete random bad luck. Secondly, if you take a look at non-insured prices for health care in countries with universal health care (for the most part, the "universal" part is limited to residents and visitors still have to pay), the prices are still significantly lower than they are in the U.S. Having a single payer for insurance and strong regulations over health care enable things like price controls, which makes perfect sense in a health care context since it's never really going to work as a free market (emergency care needs to be treated immediately without the ability to "shop around", the care required isn't always evident at intake, doctors refuse to talk or consider financial aspects, etc.)

LoSboccacc 6y ago
I know. but that's not an excuse to pass or accept a wrong information ("y only cost x to me in this country") as correct.
- lumberjack 6y ago
  You are right that you also have to include taxes, but you also have to account for the fact that taxes are dependent on income and coverage is always guaranteed. So it is not the same as paying for a service. It is something else.
- ryanbrunner 6y ago
  I think there's a real difference though when the cost is "baked in" via taxes or something else. If a doctor's visit has the potential to cost you hundreds or even thousands of dollars, unless something is really serious, chances are you're going to avoid going. In a system where costs are paid through taxes, the disincentive to see a doctor is eliminated. That maybe has some negative effects (going to urgent care for relatively minor problems), but I think it has real benefits in terms of preventative care. In terms of a countries overall finances, it balances out (not entirely - see my previous point), but in terms of affect on behaviour it has a huge effect (in addition to balancing out the burden that I mentioned before).