4 ms·

Playing the devils advocate, and I think this is a pretty strong point against shrooms: while opioids cause harm, their harm is incredibly mechanical (it’s just

Playing the devils advocate, and I think this is a pretty strong point against shrooms: while opioids cause harm, their harm is incredibly mechanical (it’s just addiction) and can be managed well. Shrooms play with your brain. We barely know how that works and quite frankly a lot of the research into managing the depressive episodes with shrooms may just be that you become more stupid and therefore less prone to thinking in the first place.

teataster 6y ago
James Farina has spent decades doing non-clinical research on long term effects of psychedelics. For what is worth, the effects seem to go the other direction. Other than that, I think you are absolutely right tho, mushrooms can induce severe changes. I am not for legalization. And I believe your point is why most people under legal psychedelic treatment are terminal patients.
Mordisquitos 6y ago
I acknowledge you're playing devil's advocate, so don't take this too harshly, but the truism that "Shrooms play with your brain" is meaningless as an argument against shrooms—more so when contrasting it to "just an addiction". Where is an addiction anywhere but the brain? Of course opioids play with your brain. So do SSRI antidepressants for example, whose very name is based on their most commonly accepted mechanism of action. And it's not only strictly psychiatric drugs—ADHD medication also plays with your brain, influencing dopamine pathways. But then so do gambling, and physical exercise, and meditation! Heck, even social media plays with your brain. The mere fact that something has an effect on the brain is not in itself an argument against it—let alone when it is being proposed as a psychotherapeutic tool.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  Opioid addiction is a clear mechanical fact. We know exactly what one needs to do in order to overcome opioid addiction (or how to avoid it on that matter).
  - dwiel 6y ago
    It is absolutely not as simple as clear mechincal fact. See for example the rat park experiment [1]. There is also the case of huge numbers of people addicted to morphine during the Vietnam War, who upon arriving back home to families and support networks and away from horrors of war were able to kick the habit quickly and without difficulty. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    How does your reasoning hold up to the fact that our countries have no clue how to deal with large opioid addict populations that have become homeless yet there are no shroom addict homeless populations, in fact it's basically unheard of that shrooms have ruined anyone's life outside of perhaps rare cases and HN anecdotes? You're comparing something that happens to anyone taking opioids long enough, to the worst thing that you can imagine to happen on shrooms, something that actually happens to ~nobody who has taken shrooms, and somehow trying to table that as an argument. Meanwhile, I can walk through tent cities in Vancouver of people getting free opioid injections from the government because they've given up so hard on this ez addiction problem. And I'm supposed to somehow see how shrooms are actually worse. You said you're playing devil's advocate, but you still have to try to make an argument. It just sounds like you're field-testing a half-baked supposition you came up with 30 seconds ago.
etripe 6y ago
Become stupid temporarily, or permanently due to brain damage? If the latter, that's a very strong claim.
the_only_law 6y ago
I can go to a store right now If I wanted and take my pick of one certain recreational, legal neurotoxin.
washadjeffmad 6y ago
Chronic pain does affect the brain, which we already know has long term physiological and neurodegenerative effects. However, we don't have any evidence that psilocybin causes any lasting harm, especially against cognition. Opiate harm is also not limited to addiction. Overdosing and liver toxicity from (abuse of) prescribed opiates is real and driven by their steep curve of tolerance. Opiate withdrawal for many can be harsh enough that it's worse than the pain being managed, leading to perverse outcomes like theft, violence, exploitation, and addictive cycles. Inhibitions are also altered under the influence and during withdrawal leading to riskier behaviors and accidents. Those are the low-hanging rebuttals. We already know the societal cost of opiates far, far outweighs the damage of other recreational substances because of its availability, potential for harm, effects on interpersonal relationships and mental state, and propensity for addictive abuse. Psylocybin has mild potential for mental addiction but none of the cofactors for abuse or deleterious side effects on health.
- Loeffeldude 6y ago
  What about people with HPPD? There are definitely people who have long lasting effects of these drugs. Negative and positive. I have depersonalisation/derealization and anxeity disorder after a bad LSD experience. Would it have been triggered without it? Maybe. But what I do know is that shortly after that experience these problems began. I think this overly positive reporting is harmful. I too used to think that drugs aren't that bad and it's all just propaganda but drugs do mess with your mind and if you value your mental health you should stay away from anything harder than alcohol imo.
  - sterlind 6y ago
    I developed HPPD at 19 from a combination of a bad 2C-E trip, a bad reaction to an SSRI and cannabis. I stopped all drugs (including the SSRI) and confessed to my psychiatrist, who prescribed me clonazepam. Clonazepam reduced the intensity of the visuals, and after the summer ended I was mostly able to tune out the visual static and focus on my schoolwork. I stopped needing the clonazepam, finished learning to tune out the noise and got on with my life. I also had DP/DR, but that got better with focusing on work and community to rebuild my shattered ego and life. It was unpleasant but I ultimately came out better than I went in. Maybe it doesn't work for you, but rebuilding worked for me and made me stronger.
kortex 6y ago
> quite frankly a lot of the research into managing the depressive episodes with shrooms may just be that you become more stupid and therefore less prone to thinking in the first place. Source needed. All the research I've seen suggest that psychedelics, nay many serotonergics, boost BDNF and neurogenesis. However, they may artificially weaken links to fear circuitry in the brain - this is usually a feature.

teataster 6y ago

James Farina has spent decades doing non-clinical research on long term effects of psychedelics. For what is worth, the effects seem to go the other direction. Other than that, I think you are absolutely right tho, mushrooms can induce severe changes. I am not for legalization. And I believe your point is why most people under legal psychedelic treatment are terminal patients.

Mordisquitos 6y ago

I acknowledge you're playing devil's advocate, so don't take this too harshly, but the truism that "Shrooms play with your brain" is meaningless as an argument against shrooms—more so when contrasting it to "just an addiction". Where is an addiction anywhere but the brain? Of course opioids play with your brain. So do SSRI antidepressants for example, whose very name is based on their most commonly accepted mechanism of action. And it's not only strictly psychiatric drugs—ADHD medication also plays with your brain, influencing dopamine pathways. But then so do gambling, and physical exercise, and meditation! Heck, even social media plays with your brain. The mere fact that something has an effect on the brain is not in itself an argument against it—let alone when it is being proposed as a psychotherapeutic tool.

heavenlyblue 6y ago
Opioid addiction is a clear mechanical fact. We know exactly what one needs to do in order to overcome opioid addiction (or how to avoid it on that matter).
- dwiel 6y ago
  It is absolutely not as simple as clear mechincal fact. See for example the rat park experiment [1]. There is also the case of huge numbers of people addicted to morphine during the Vietnam War, who upon arriving back home to families and support networks and away from horrors of war were able to kick the habit quickly and without difficulty. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  How does your reasoning hold up to the fact that our countries have no clue how to deal with large opioid addict populations that have become homeless yet there are no shroom addict homeless populations, in fact it's basically unheard of that shrooms have ruined anyone's life outside of perhaps rare cases and HN anecdotes? You're comparing something that happens to anyone taking opioids long enough, to the worst thing that you can imagine to happen on shrooms, something that actually happens to ~nobody who has taken shrooms, and somehow trying to table that as an argument. Meanwhile, I can walk through tent cities in Vancouver of people getting free opioid injections from the government because they've given up so hard on this ez addiction problem. And I'm supposed to somehow see how shrooms are actually worse. You said you're playing devil's advocate, but you still have to try to make an argument. It just sounds like you're field-testing a half-baked supposition you came up with 30 seconds ago.

etripe 6y ago

Become stupid temporarily, or permanently due to brain damage? If the latter, that's a very strong claim.

the_only_law 6y ago

I can go to a store right now If I wanted and take my pick of one certain recreational, legal neurotoxin.

washadjeffmad 6y ago

Chronic pain does affect the brain, which we already know has long term physiological and neurodegenerative effects. However, we don't have any evidence that psilocybin causes any lasting harm, especially against cognition. Opiate harm is also not limited to addiction. Overdosing and liver toxicity from (abuse of) prescribed opiates is real and driven by their steep curve of tolerance. Opiate withdrawal for many can be harsh enough that it's worse than the pain being managed, leading to perverse outcomes like theft, violence, exploitation, and addictive cycles. Inhibitions are also altered under the influence and during withdrawal leading to riskier behaviors and accidents. Those are the low-hanging rebuttals. We already know the societal cost of opiates far, far outweighs the damage of other recreational substances because of its availability, potential for harm, effects on interpersonal relationships and mental state, and propensity for addictive abuse. Psylocybin has mild potential for mental addiction but none of the cofactors for abuse or deleterious side effects on health.

Loeffeldude 6y ago
What about people with HPPD? There are definitely people who have long lasting effects of these drugs. Negative and positive. I have depersonalisation/derealization and anxeity disorder after a bad LSD experience. Would it have been triggered without it? Maybe. But what I do know is that shortly after that experience these problems began. I think this overly positive reporting is harmful. I too used to think that drugs aren't that bad and it's all just propaganda but drugs do mess with your mind and if you value your mental health you should stay away from anything harder than alcohol imo.
- sterlind 6y ago
  I developed HPPD at 19 from a combination of a bad 2C-E trip, a bad reaction to an SSRI and cannabis. I stopped all drugs (including the SSRI) and confessed to my psychiatrist, who prescribed me clonazepam. Clonazepam reduced the intensity of the visuals, and after the summer ended I was mostly able to tune out the visual static and focus on my schoolwork. I stopped needing the clonazepam, finished learning to tune out the noise and got on with my life. I also had DP/DR, but that got better with focusing on work and community to rebuild my shattered ego and life. It was unpleasant but I ultimately came out better than I went in. Maybe it doesn't work for you, but rebuilding worked for me and made me stronger.

kortex 6y ago

> quite frankly a lot of the research into managing the depressive episodes with shrooms may just be that you become more stupid and therefore less prone to thinking in the first place. Source needed. All the research I've seen suggest that psychedelics, nay many serotonergics, boost BDNF and neurogenesis. However, they may artificially weaken links to fear circuitry in the brain - this is usually a feature.