5 ms·

Ask HN: Can the ARM Macs/PCs end the web as we know it?

It seems that the new macs are able to run mobile apps, and it won't take long until android does the same on windows pcs. Is there a chance that in 10 years everybody is using native mobile apps on desktops? Chuckling...

4778468d 6y ago
No. ARM has a huge problem with compatibility and secrecy. Buy a random intel machine .... will it run Windows and Linux? YES. Buy a random ARM device..,, will it run Linux? Maybe, probably not, even if it does, probably there’s problems and issues caused by the CPU vendor keeping aspects of its design secret. ARM is a very very long way from replacing Intel.
- nt2h9uh238h 6y ago
  According to Apples M1: Intel software runs FASTER on ARM than on Intel
- koenvdb 6y ago
  I always forget that not being able to run Linux immediately means that there is a lot of secrecy. It can never be put on Linux.
mikece 6y ago
“Always bet on the web.” PWA trumps mobile apps — until or unless it can be articulated why a PWA/hybrid app won’t work, but that is the small minority of app cases.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >PWA trumps mobile apps In what sense? Most people use mobile apps than browse the web through mobile -- and most surf from mobile vs PC. (The fact that said mobile apps might be web-based is an implementation detail).
  - blueflame7 6y ago
    Because then you don't have to download and install an app
    - coldtea 6y ago
      That's a non issue in modern mobile phones (which people use more than desktops/laptops these days).
      - silly-silly 6y ago
        [citation needed] My mum wont install an app unless she has to. In my eyes this has failed the grandmother test.
        blueflame7 6y ago
        Same for the CEO of my company. Each additional app is a potential security risk they want to minimize. Web browsers they don’t seem to understand the risks as well. They think of webpages as being a potential attacker on the street that they can just avoid where as an app is a potential burglar of their home with their prized possessions
        coldtea 6y ago
        Isn't your anecdotal statement that which should be replaced by a citation, as it's an of-no-use example-of-one? Whereas what I said might not have been accompanied by a citation, but it's a general statement, easily verifiable, including with citations: https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web#:~:text=in%20apps%20vs.-,the%20mobile%20web.,total%20media%20time%20in%202017 https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web#.... Not to mention there's no "grandmother test" as some kind of ultimate marketing gatekeeper, unless you market adult pads or something. I'm pretty sure lots of billion dollar industries fail the "grandmother test" too (youth-oriented ones, self-selectively so).
      - _carbyau_ 6y ago
        Not an issue to do and hence not an issue for public at large. But apps come with plenty of their own issues which is gaining public recognition. It is early days yet though. Personally: - I find it odd to need an app for a service entirely reliant on off-phone data. - I like my phone battery life. I avoid apps if I can help it. Web page links all over my home screen.
- cnasc 6y ago
  Apple hobbles PWAs on iOS, so unless app creators want to ignore the most profitable segment of the mobile marketplace PWAs aren’t a solution
  - postalrat 6y ago
    It's true that apple hobbles PWAs on their mobile devices. But not everyone uses those devices and most apps don't make money off the initial purchase.
- tdeck 6y ago
  Unfortunately PWA seems to have almost no adoption at all. I'm not sure why that is. Native features missing? Developers want to fingerprint you? Distribution mechanisms insufficient? All I know is PWA seems to have stalled.
  - frompdx 6y ago
    One issue with PWAs is that Apple has hobbled what they can do on iOS. I think this prompts a lot of would be adopters to skip PWA and go straight to packaging their app with electron.
thesuperbigfrog 6y ago
>> it won't take long until android does the same on windows pcs Chromebooks run android apps today. Windows computers will run android apps with BlueStacks or a similar emulator. Until mobile apps can do EVERYTHING that desktops apps do, desktop apps are here to stay.
adamnemecek 6y ago
Why not just go back to desktop apps instead of mobile desktop apps?
- silly-silly 6y ago
  This is what will be happening.
bryik 6y ago
So the choice would be: build an Android app and an iOS app, or build a web app? Eh, I'd rather build a web app.
- leoh 6y ago
  lol — have you tried to engage, in a serious way, with the JavaScript ecosystem? It is a _dumpster fire_ to produce anything that is reasonably as interactive and complex as an iOS Application. I do agree, however, with the idea that some things ought _not_ be apps, especially things that are dead simple, for which it _truly is_ easier to develop a web application.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Lol, seems like you haven't tried to engage with the web ecosystem in a serious way. Web apps with TypeScript and React/Vue/Svelte are the easiest, most productive way of making software that runs immediately anywhere, and the ecosystem has everything (don't forget about Wasm). SwiftUI is nice, but needs a lot more years until it reaches the level of React. Android libs are a joke. (I write enterprise React applications last 6 years, and used to work with WinForms before that.)
    - leoh 6y ago
      This is totally untrue when you start building an application and care about superior interactivity and sophisticated UI/UX patterns
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Yeah, now I can see that you have indeed never really tried.
        leoh 6y ago
        >Yeah, now I can see that you have indeed never really tried. This is totally untrue! I am open to the possibility, however, that I have been working with a challenging front-end codebase and that, on that basis, I may not have seen the best that JS has to offer. But in my experience — intermittently building toy iOS apps the last few years and having also built some production react apps in a large codebase (perhaps not a fair apples-to-apples comparison) — iOS has felt much more straightforward for creating apps with idiomatic UI/UX. Forgive me if I came off as a bit glib. But I do tentatively, at least, still hold my original position; though am open to the possibility of being wrong!
LASR 6y ago
It hasn't ended the web on Mobile. Why would it end it on the desktop?
TechNerds 6y ago
This ColdFusion Video goes into a deeper explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuF9weSkS68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuF9weSkS68
auganov 6y ago
You could flip it around and ask - given that phone chips are approaching desktop level performance, how native do you need to go? We're already seeing native apps become less "native". Using high level frameworks that provide a common core between platforms is pretty standard nowadays. IMO the biggest driver already is and will be app store/platform policies. Fundamental hardware constraints are secondary.

4778468d 6y ago

No. ARM has a huge problem with compatibility and secrecy. Buy a random intel machine .... will it run Windows and Linux? YES. Buy a random ARM device..,, will it run Linux? Maybe, probably not, even if it does, probably there’s problems and issues caused by the CPU vendor keeping aspects of its design secret. ARM is a very very long way from replacing Intel.

nt2h9uh238h 6y ago
According to Apples M1: Intel software runs FASTER on ARM than on Intel
koenvdb 6y ago
I always forget that not being able to run Linux immediately means that there is a lot of secrecy. It can never be put on Linux.

mikece 6y ago

“Always bet on the web.” PWA trumps mobile apps — until or unless it can be articulated why a PWA/hybrid app won’t work, but that is the small minority of app cases.

coldtea 6y ago
>PWA trumps mobile apps In what sense? Most people use mobile apps than browse the web through mobile -- and most surf from mobile vs PC. (The fact that said mobile apps might be web-based is an implementation detail).
- blueflame7 6y ago
  Because then you don't have to download and install an app
  - coldtea 6y ago
    That's a non issue in modern mobile phones (which people use more than desktops/laptops these days).
    - silly-silly 6y ago
      [citation needed] My mum wont install an app unless she has to. In my eyes this has failed the grandmother test.
      - blueflame7 6y ago
        Same for the CEO of my company. Each additional app is a potential security risk they want to minimize. Web browsers they don’t seem to understand the risks as well. They think of webpages as being a potential attacker on the street that they can just avoid where as an app is a potential burglar of their home with their prized possessions
      - coldtea 6y ago
        Isn't your anecdotal statement that which should be replaced by a citation, as it's an of-no-use example-of-one? Whereas what I said might not have been accompanied by a citation, but it's a general statement, easily verifiable, including with citations: https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web#:~:text=in%20apps%20vs.-,the%20mobile%20web.,total%20media%20time%20in%202017 https://www.mobiloud.com/blog/mobile-apps-vs-the-mobile-web#.... Not to mention there's no "grandmother test" as some kind of ultimate marketing gatekeeper, unless you market adult pads or something. I'm pretty sure lots of billion dollar industries fail the "grandmother test" too (youth-oriented ones, self-selectively so).
    - _carbyau_ 6y ago
      Not an issue to do and hence not an issue for public at large. But apps come with plenty of their own issues which is gaining public recognition. It is early days yet though. Personally: - I find it odd to need an app for a service entirely reliant on off-phone data. - I like my phone battery life. I avoid apps if I can help it. Web page links all over my home screen.
cnasc 6y ago
Apple hobbles PWAs on iOS, so unless app creators want to ignore the most profitable segment of the mobile marketplace PWAs aren’t a solution
- postalrat 6y ago
  It's true that apple hobbles PWAs on their mobile devices. But not everyone uses those devices and most apps don't make money off the initial purchase.
tdeck 6y ago
Unfortunately PWA seems to have almost no adoption at all. I'm not sure why that is. Native features missing? Developers want to fingerprint you? Distribution mechanisms insufficient? All I know is PWA seems to have stalled.
- frompdx 6y ago
  One issue with PWAs is that Apple has hobbled what they can do on iOS. I think this prompts a lot of would be adopters to skip PWA and go straight to packaging their app with electron.

thesuperbigfrog 6y ago

>> it won't take long until android does the same on windows pcs Chromebooks run android apps today. Windows computers will run android apps with BlueStacks or a similar emulator. Until mobile apps can do EVERYTHING that desktops apps do, desktop apps are here to stay.

adamnemecek 6y ago

Why not just go back to desktop apps instead of mobile desktop apps?

silly-silly 6y ago
This is what will be happening.

bryik 6y ago

So the choice would be: build an Android app and an iOS app, or build a web app? Eh, I'd rather build a web app.

leoh 6y ago
lol — have you tried to engage, in a serious way, with the JavaScript ecosystem? It is a _dumpster fire_ to produce anything that is reasonably as interactive and complex as an iOS Application. I do agree, however, with the idea that some things ought _not_ be apps, especially things that are dead simple, for which it _truly is_ easier to develop a web application.
- emteycz 6y ago
  Lol, seems like you haven't tried to engage with the web ecosystem in a serious way. Web apps with TypeScript and React/Vue/Svelte are the easiest, most productive way of making software that runs immediately anywhere, and the ecosystem has everything (don't forget about Wasm). SwiftUI is nice, but needs a lot more years until it reaches the level of React. Android libs are a joke. (I write enterprise React applications last 6 years, and used to work with WinForms before that.)
  - leoh 6y ago
    This is totally untrue when you start building an application and care about superior interactivity and sophisticated UI/UX patterns
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Yeah, now I can see that you have indeed never really tried.
      - leoh 6y ago
        >Yeah, now I can see that you have indeed never really tried. This is totally untrue! I am open to the possibility, however, that I have been working with a challenging front-end codebase and that, on that basis, I may not have seen the best that JS has to offer. But in my experience — intermittently building toy iOS apps the last few years and having also built some production react apps in a large codebase (perhaps not a fair apples-to-apples comparison) — iOS has felt much more straightforward for creating apps with idiomatic UI/UX. Forgive me if I came off as a bit glib. But I do tentatively, at least, still hold my original position; though am open to the possibility of being wrong!

LASR 6y ago

It hasn't ended the web on Mobile. Why would it end it on the desktop?

TechNerds 6y ago

This ColdFusion Video goes into a deeper explanation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuF9weSkS68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuF9weSkS68

auganov 6y ago

You could flip it around and ask - given that phone chips are approaching desktop level performance, how native do you need to go? We're already seeing native apps become less "native". Using high level frameworks that provide a common core between platforms is pretty standard nowadays. IMO the biggest driver already is and will be app store/platform policies. Fundamental hardware constraints are secondary.