3 ms·

I think US healthcare spending dwarfs the defense budget by an order of magnitude. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

dragontamer 6y ago
The US military is a system that converts high school students (of varying capabilities) into soldiers and officers. 1. You start with propaganda: movies and video games that show the military in a positive light, encouraging a number of impressionable kids to join the military. I'm not against propaganda btw, but I understand how it works: the modern military spends a lot of money on Call of Duty esports for example, Twitch.tv recruitment, etc. etc. The goal is to make a positive first impression, usually through an entertainment venue (sports, video games, or movies) 2. You continue with explicit ROTC programs: where the high schoolers (or college-kids) can get their first real taste of military culture. 3. At actual recruitment: there are standardized tests that sort students off of their capabilities: finding a job that matches their skillsets. 4. You have a training program ("Boot Camp") that gives these recruits the skills they need to start their job. 5. You have a clear and well-understood ladder, organized by rank and pay-grade. Though its somewhat complex to outsiders, those within the military fully understand what they need to do to grow as a soldier (or officer). There's no ambiguity for what's needed to grow from E1 to E2 or from Lieutenant to Major. There's a literal army of bean-counters who are also double-checking and triple-checking the results to make sure things are going as planned across divisions. 6. Post-military life is also considered: the GI Bill ensures that college-life is guaranteed for soldiers, to be ready to be retrained after their military career. As such, military life can be temporary (4 years or 8 year stints), or permanent (a full 30+ year career). Both lives are encouraged and well supported by the structure. A number of Federal jobs (and state-jobs) even provide explicit bonuses to veterans, to help the soldier transition into post-military life. -------- That's how you recruit, and train soldiers in the military. If your point is that the military has an awesome ability to recruit and train personnel, I fully agree with you. But don't diminish the amount of thought, and resources, that have been poured into the military structure. From pre-recruitment propaganda, to recruitment programs, to continuing education (and the entire promotion structure), the military requires a LOT of money and manpower to support. If you want to deploy such a "bootcamp" for nurses and doctors, I think I'm in agreement with you. I just want to be clear that such a "Bootcamp" will be extremely expensive, no matter how I look at it. Even if you cut out propaganda, and a bunch of excess spending stuff (military bands and other "morale builders"), the core of the military recruitment / training / post-training structure is very expensive.
- michaniskin 6y ago
  The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc. If more workers are needed to care for covid patients then the wages will rise, and more workers will switch from other jobs to perform this work. Training people to empty bedpans, draw blood, monitor diagnostic equipment, and so on is not any more complex than what people learn in a code bootcamp, and code bootcamps are doing fine. Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc. Look man, if you don't want me comparing nurses to the military, then don't bring it up in the first place (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289) > This is what the army does, it works fine. Your words, not mine. Find a better comparison. And no, I don't think your "helicopter pilot" argument is serious at this point. There's no way you actually consider helicopter pilots as important as nurses right now. ----------- > Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too. If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. You can't just get "another nurse" to do their job (those nurses are also overworked and busy). If a helicopter pilot quits their job, their passengers need to wait a few more days to find a new pilot. I have my doubts you're serious with the helicopter discussion point. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove.
    - michaniskin 6y ago
      Sorry, perhaps I digressed. To get back to the point: > If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. This is obviously not true, people are not dropping like flies whenever a nurse in America takes a vacation or calls in sick. Are you seriously claiming that there is a national shortage of people who can be trained to empty bedpans, setup IVs, draw blood, and take temperatures? At any price? If wages go up, more labor will be available, and there is no shortage.

dragontamer 6y ago

The US military is a system that converts high school students (of varying capabilities) into soldiers and officers. 1. You start with propaganda: movies and video games that show the military in a positive light, encouraging a number of impressionable kids to join the military. I'm not against propaganda btw, but I understand how it works: the modern military spends a lot of money on Call of Duty esports for example, Twitch.tv recruitment, etc. etc. The goal is to make a positive first impression, usually through an entertainment venue (sports, video games, or movies) 2. You continue with explicit ROTC programs: where the high schoolers (or college-kids) can get their first real taste of military culture. 3. At actual recruitment: there are standardized tests that sort students off of their capabilities: finding a job that matches their skillsets. 4. You have a training program ("Boot Camp") that gives these recruits the skills they need to start their job. 5. You have a clear and well-understood ladder, organized by rank and pay-grade. Though its somewhat complex to outsiders, those within the military fully understand what they need to do to grow as a soldier (or officer). There's no ambiguity for what's needed to grow from E1 to E2 or from Lieutenant to Major. There's a literal army of bean-counters who are also double-checking and triple-checking the results to make sure things are going as planned across divisions. 6. Post-military life is also considered: the GI Bill ensures that college-life is guaranteed for soldiers, to be ready to be retrained after their military career. As such, military life can be temporary (4 years or 8 year stints), or permanent (a full 30+ year career). Both lives are encouraged and well supported by the structure. A number of Federal jobs (and state-jobs) even provide explicit bonuses to veterans, to help the soldier transition into post-military life. -------- That's how you recruit, and train soldiers in the military. If your point is that the military has an awesome ability to recruit and train personnel, I fully agree with you. But don't diminish the amount of thought, and resources, that have been poured into the military structure. From pre-recruitment propaganda, to recruitment programs, to continuing education (and the entire promotion structure), the military requires a LOT of money and manpower to support. If you want to deploy such a "bootcamp" for nurses and doctors, I think I'm in agreement with you. I just want to be clear that such a "Bootcamp" will be extremely expensive, no matter how I look at it. Even if you cut out propaganda, and a bunch of excess spending stuff (military bands and other "morale builders"), the core of the military recruitment / training / post-training structure is very expensive.

michaniskin 6y ago
The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc. If more workers are needed to care for covid patients then the wages will rise, and more workers will switch from other jobs to perform this work. Training people to empty bedpans, draw blood, monitor diagnostic equipment, and so on is not any more complex than what people learn in a code bootcamp, and code bootcamps are doing fine. Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > The army needs propaganda to recruit people because it's not just a job. Soldiers don't have the right to quit if they don't like the working conditions. But many people actually sign up (or re-up) for the money, to pay off student loans, etc. Look man, if you don't want me comparing nurses to the military, then don't bring it up in the first place (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25213289) > This is what the army does, it works fine. Your words, not mine. Find a better comparison. And no, I don't think your "helicopter pilot" argument is serious at this point. There's no way you actually consider helicopter pilots as important as nurses right now. ----------- > Nursing isn't some kind of uniquely difficult occupation. If a pilot can learn to fly helicopters commercially in a year then I would propose that we can train people to do this, too. If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. You can't just get "another nurse" to do their job (those nurses are also overworked and busy). If a helicopter pilot quits their job, their passengers need to wait a few more days to find a new pilot. I have my doubts you're serious with the helicopter discussion point. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove.
  - michaniskin 6y ago
    Sorry, perhaps I digressed. To get back to the point: > If a nurse quits on their job, then their patients die. This is obviously not true, people are not dropping like flies whenever a nurse in America takes a vacation or calls in sick. Are you seriously claiming that there is a national shortage of people who can be trained to empty bedpans, setup IVs, draw blood, and take temperatures? At any price? If wages go up, more labor will be available, and there is no shortage.