4 ms·

> The rule of thumb among managers is don't hire anybody unless you're 90% sure they'll work out for at least a year. This used to be the the way people though

> The rule of thumb among managers is don't hire anybody unless you're 90% sure they'll work out for at least a year. This used to be the the way people thought, but the trend I've seen is it's becoming more and more common to just continuously fire people. In my last two jobs at very different companies it was pretty insane the rate that good employees got fired based on "culture mismatch" related issues. Amazon and Netflix have basically normalized PIP culture at larger places, where the strategy is basically hire like crazy and then find a reason to pip anyone you don't like. The most recent startup I was at was absurdly trigger happy, gleefully firing anyone that wasn't able to read the minds of "leadership" or in anyways challenged the status quo (even if they were supposed hired to do just that). It used to be my experience that anyone who was let go within a year was obviously a bad hire to anyone at the company. Now I see constant confusion among employees about why some of their favorite coworkers are being let go. Maybe I'm just unlucky in places I've been recently, or very lucky about places I've been before, but it certainly looks like a strange shift in the environment.

an_opabinia 6y ago
Believe it or not, there is no legal precedent or basis around Performance Improvement Plans. Their use as some kind of magic lawsuit shield hasn’t been tested in any court, ever, by anyone, and it has no basis, especially those words “performance improvement plan,” in any law or regulation, at least in California, Delaware or Georgia (some places I’ve checked before). “PIP culture” is more like “PIP cargo cult.”
- mreome 6y ago
  > Their use as some kind of magic lawsuit shield hasn’t been tested in any court, ever, by anyone. If nobody is even willing to take it to court to try to test it, then it sounds like it is working as an amazingly effective lawsuit shield to me. No company wants to defend anything in court, they want to never go to court. I don’t think there really is anything to test in court here though. In the US generally all an employer needs to show is that an employee was fired for a valid job-related-reason of some kind, and not for the quite narrow set of reasons that would make it illegal. All a PIP does is make sure managers/supervisors are documenting reasons properly, while at the same time showing the employee that they have documented reasons that they would show should it ever go to court. Plus, the added benefit of being able to tell the court “See, we even tried to help them improve before we fired them.” Unless the employee has unambiguous hard evidence of an “actual” reason for firing that was not legal, then there really is nothing to take to court. That all applies to non-contract employment in US only of course, and I am not familiar with all states just those I have worked in, so there could be some states where it’s more complicated.

an_opabinia 6y ago

Believe it or not, there is no legal precedent or basis around Performance Improvement Plans. Their use as some kind of magic lawsuit shield hasn’t been tested in any court, ever, by anyone, and it has no basis, especially those words “performance improvement plan,” in any law or regulation, at least in California, Delaware or Georgia (some places I’ve checked before). “PIP culture” is more like “PIP cargo cult.”

mreome 6y ago
> Their use as some kind of magic lawsuit shield hasn’t been tested in any court, ever, by anyone. If nobody is even willing to take it to court to try to test it, then it sounds like it is working as an amazingly effective lawsuit shield to me. No company wants to defend anything in court, they want to never go to court. I don’t think there really is anything to test in court here though. In the US generally all an employer needs to show is that an employee was fired for a valid job-related-reason of some kind, and not for the quite narrow set of reasons that would make it illegal. All a PIP does is make sure managers/supervisors are documenting reasons properly, while at the same time showing the employee that they have documented reasons that they would show should it ever go to court. Plus, the added benefit of being able to tell the court “See, we even tried to help them improve before we fired them.” Unless the employee has unambiguous hard evidence of an “actual” reason for firing that was not legal, then there really is nothing to take to court. That all applies to non-contract employment in US only of course, and I am not familiar with all states just those I have worked in, so there could be some states where it’s more complicated.