4 ms·

One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I tol

One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care. It took me over a year to land my first gig, only making $45k a year. No job since has paid me more. I had phone interviews that last for less than two minutes because I didn't have industry experience when the posting clearly no experience needed/ will train. I've had my time wasted by recruiters who send me to interviews that I'm not qualified for. Interviewed with Amazon at one point, got invited to onsite interview, when my contact ghosted me while trying to arrange travel. I've worked some programming jobs, all of them have been horrible in their own way. Alcoholics, cliques and fiefdoms, to being left to my own devices working alone often forgotten. At this point my wife thinks its time for me to go back to school and get another degree, leave programming behind. I love computers. I'm a good programmer. I have no idea what I would do if I wasn't in technology. What frustrates me the most, is the number of people I know in my personal life, that never got programming degrees that are now well paid programmers. All of them have degrees in non engineering fields, started non programming jobs that turned into programming jobs because they needed something coded up. The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. I guess where I'm trying to go with this, is that for some of us, we just can't seem to get ahead. Maybe we are just unlucky. Maybe we have been beaten down by the interview process or jobs and we don't want to deal with it anymore. I know for a fact that had I just taken a regular 9-5 non-stem job I'd be ahead of where I am right now. And what scares me is the thought that if I keep trying, I might not ever do better in STEM.... I love STEM...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. Yes, welcome to the real world of employment where your ability to network, sell yourself well, make your boss happy, be likable and play the politics game is what will make you successful rather than your ability to 1337 code. I know it's bitter, and most don't like to admit this, but tech is by no means a meritocracy even though the PR likes to make it one.
- bartread 6y ago
  People often talk about these aspects of human behaviour and interaction like they're an inherently bad thing. And, oc rouse, we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes it can be a bad thing. We can all point to examples of toxic behaviour and nepotism as a result of people sucking up and playing politics. However, humans are social creatures, and we get things done by cooperating with eachother, so I think it's fair to argue that those social skills are also pretty important for building software. Like any other social activity or grouping, that can work well, or it can be toxic, but the need for those social skills as a software engineer isn't inherently evil. Likewise, the fact that people with "better" social skills often "do better" isn't necessarily wrong either because those skills are incredibly important for any cooperative endeavour, and particularly for leadership.
PlugTunin 6y ago
I'm really sorry to hear this. It's a bit of a surprise -- I'd have assumed that not being able to get a job would be the problem, rather than the one of not being fairly compensated. And while nothing is a meritocracy, shame that horrible programmers aren't eventually exposed.
alistairSH 6y ago
That's insane. Are you in a small market or something?
- victor9000 6y ago
  That's what I was thinking. $45K is absurd for an engineering job, so it's gotta be in a place like Kansas.
  - yurishimo 6y ago
    I worked in Kansas and made 45k at a small agency. It was one of the larger college towns and I worked my way up from $12/hr as the company grew, thanks to my help. Rural Kansas dev might aspire to 45k but even then. I think they might just live in a small town and don’t want to look for work elsewhere. Which is fine, just know the salary comes with the territory. Half the reasons tech pays what it does is because a lot of the jobs are in expensive cities.
- aroundtown 6y ago
  I was in a medium sized city with college and engineering firms. I've moved to a major metro for my first job and then several times since for my partner, to non-tech heavy cities as their career is more specialized and isn't available everywhere. Current city has repressed wages across the board. It's a place with a "low cost of living" and several universities that pump out local students who want to stay here at any cost and a very healthy foreign worker scene. Currently, I'm willing to move.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Even $45k sounds ridiculously low if you have a few years of experience. Is there any reason you haven't tried getting a remote job? I can't imagine anywhere even offering less than $60k for someone with a few years and is remote (and is US based).
    - the_only_law 6y ago
granzymes 6y ago
> The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. Could you expand on that?
- fred_is_fred 6y ago
  I assume he means friends/colleagues who are not hiring him along as they advance and move jobs.
- aroundtown 6y ago
  Certainly, what I mean here is people that have been helped out to get where they are, then not pay it forward or in fact go out of their way to not help out their peers. I've seen this happen many times. Not just to friends, but co-workers and people that I have met along the way. In one case I had a friend who was hired by a former classmate to a local firm. After a year there they started hiring more programmers company wide. This friend refused to interview people who had graduated from our department or pass along resumes. Instead they started hiring other people from non-engineering departments that they thought they could train to program. This guy is now a C-level and still refuses to hire people that graduated from our department. I'd wager that it's just a feature of my particular network and people I've come across. As my partner is the opposite, and their network helps each other out.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    I've seen the opposite. Employee from University X would make a referral for everyone from University X that would apply. And let me just say the signal to noise ratio from that institution was horrible to say the least.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      If X makes a recommendation for Y then X's reputation is on the line. These are the rules of the game, why weren't they communicated?
  - 6y ago
908B64B197 6y ago
Where did you graduate from? With a real CS degree?
- aroundtown 6y ago
  Real CS degree from a college of engineering at a large state university. Obviously this isn't some top 40 program. Had I known then what I do now, I would have applied to some of those programs. Back then, I wasn't aware of other programs or even names of universities known for computing (other than MIT). I came from a small town that didn't have many opportunities for kids interested in tech in the late 90's early 00's. So you pretty much went to one of the State Universities.
fairity 6y ago
I see a few possibilities that explain your situation --a couple of which you've already mentioned. 1) You've gotten unlucky i.e. each job you've applied to had a 5% acceptance rate, and you've just happened to roll 1-19 out of 20, n times in a row. If this is the case, keep your head down and apply to more places. .95^30 > 20% but .95^90 < 1% 2) You're not applying to the right places. There are literally thousands of startups that would kill to hire a good, remote software engineer for $45K. Take a look at workatastartup.com 3) You're not actually a good programmer. This may sound harsh, but some of us don't have the points of reference to accurately determine how our skillset stacks up against others. 4) You're not easy to get along with or manage. When hiring for junior positions, companies are less likely to put up with jerks than for senior positions. I realize some of this may sound harsh. My intention is to help you. My advice is to apply to startups and offer to work for free for a month. Do this 3 times, and there's almost no chance you will not get an offer if you're good programmer who's easy to get along with.
- sgerenser 6y ago
  I don’t think it would be legal for a company to allow someone to work for free (or anything less than minimum wage in the state in question). However offering to work at a very low hourly wage on a temporary/probationary basis could work.
- bartread 6y ago
  There's another one: 5) You might be a good programmer but your skillset in terms of technology stack(s) might not match up with what employers/recruiters are looking for. We interviewed a junior dev a couple of years back who had exclusively RPM and mainframe experience. We're a .NET/C#/SQL Server/TypeScript/React shop, with a bit of R and Python thrown in outside of the core technology team. I couldn't work out whether he couldn't get his head round our pair programming task (which isn't any kind of ridiculous invert a red/black tree type whiteboard problem) because he wasn't a good programmer or because the mental model was so different to what he was used to, and he really seemed to struggle with C#. I didn't give him a job because I thought the risk of having to let him go during probation was too high, which would have sucked given that he'd have been leaving a steady job to join us. Contrast this with another interviewee who was a nurse, and a self-taught programmer, who really did seem to get it. He nailed our assessments, and we made him an offer. He joined us and has worked out really well. It's not that I'm against hiring people with mismatched skills, or from an unusual professional background - far from it - but I need to see some glimmer of a good match during the selection process, particularly if somebody would be leaving stable employment to join us (not that we're unstable, but there's the probation period to successfully navigate) and/or - not really an issue now we're all WFH - they're planning to relocate to work with us.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. Yes, welcome to the real world of employment where your ability to network, sell yourself well, make your boss happy, be likable and play the politics game is what will make you successful rather than your ability to 1337 code. I know it's bitter, and most don't like to admit this, but tech is by no means a meritocracy even though the PR likes to make it one.

bartread 6y ago
People often talk about these aspects of human behaviour and interaction like they're an inherently bad thing. And, oc rouse, we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes it can be a bad thing. We can all point to examples of toxic behaviour and nepotism as a result of people sucking up and playing politics. However, humans are social creatures, and we get things done by cooperating with eachother, so I think it's fair to argue that those social skills are also pretty important for building software. Like any other social activity or grouping, that can work well, or it can be toxic, but the need for those social skills as a software engineer isn't inherently evil. Likewise, the fact that people with "better" social skills often "do better" isn't necessarily wrong either because those skills are incredibly important for any cooperative endeavour, and particularly for leadership.

PlugTunin 6y ago

I'm really sorry to hear this. It's a bit of a surprise -- I'd have assumed that not being able to get a job would be the problem, rather than the one of not being fairly compensated. And while nothing is a meritocracy, shame that horrible programmers aren't eventually exposed.

alistairSH 6y ago

That's insane. Are you in a small market or something?

victor9000 6y ago
That's what I was thinking. $45K is absurd for an engineering job, so it's gotta be in a place like Kansas.
- yurishimo 6y ago
  I worked in Kansas and made 45k at a small agency. It was one of the larger college towns and I worked my way up from $12/hr as the company grew, thanks to my help. Rural Kansas dev might aspire to 45k but even then. I think they might just live in a small town and don’t want to look for work elsewhere. Which is fine, just know the salary comes with the territory. Half the reasons tech pays what it does is because a lot of the jobs are in expensive cities.
aroundtown 6y ago
I was in a medium sized city with college and engineering firms. I've moved to a major metro for my first job and then several times since for my partner, to non-tech heavy cities as their career is more specialized and isn't available everywhere. Current city has repressed wages across the board. It's a place with a "low cost of living" and several universities that pump out local students who want to stay here at any cost and a very healthy foreign worker scene. Currently, I'm willing to move.
- bradlys 6y ago
  Even $45k sounds ridiculously low if you have a few years of experience. Is there any reason you haven't tried getting a remote job? I can't imagine anywhere even offering less than $60k for someone with a few years and is remote (and is US based).
  - the_only_law 6y ago

granzymes 6y ago

> The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. Could you expand on that?

fred_is_fred 6y ago
I assume he means friends/colleagues who are not hiring him along as they advance and move jobs.
aroundtown 6y ago
Certainly, what I mean here is people that have been helped out to get where they are, then not pay it forward or in fact go out of their way to not help out their peers. I've seen this happen many times. Not just to friends, but co-workers and people that I have met along the way. In one case I had a friend who was hired by a former classmate to a local firm. After a year there they started hiring more programmers company wide. This friend refused to interview people who had graduated from our department or pass along resumes. Instead they started hiring other people from non-engineering departments that they thought they could train to program. This guy is now a C-level and still refuses to hire people that graduated from our department. I'd wager that it's just a feature of my particular network and people I've come across. As my partner is the opposite, and their network helps each other out.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  I've seen the opposite. Employee from University X would make a referral for everyone from University X that would apply. And let me just say the signal to noise ratio from that institution was horrible to say the least.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    If X makes a recommendation for Y then X's reputation is on the line. These are the rules of the game, why weren't they communicated?
- 6y ago

908B64B197 6y ago

Where did you graduate from? With a real CS degree?

aroundtown 6y ago
Real CS degree from a college of engineering at a large state university. Obviously this isn't some top 40 program. Had I known then what I do now, I would have applied to some of those programs. Back then, I wasn't aware of other programs or even names of universities known for computing (other than MIT). I came from a small town that didn't have many opportunities for kids interested in tech in the late 90's early 00's. So you pretty much went to one of the State Universities.

fairity 6y ago

I see a few possibilities that explain your situation --a couple of which you've already mentioned. 1) You've gotten unlucky i.e. each job you've applied to had a 5% acceptance rate, and you've just happened to roll 1-19 out of 20, n times in a row. If this is the case, keep your head down and apply to more places. .95^30 > 20% but .95^90 < 1% 2) You're not applying to the right places. There are literally thousands of startups that would kill to hire a good, remote software engineer for $45K. Take a look at workatastartup.com 3) You're not actually a good programmer. This may sound harsh, but some of us don't have the points of reference to accurately determine how our skillset stacks up against others. 4) You're not easy to get along with or manage. When hiring for junior positions, companies are less likely to put up with jerks than for senior positions. I realize some of this may sound harsh. My intention is to help you. My advice is to apply to startups and offer to work for free for a month. Do this 3 times, and there's almost no chance you will not get an offer if you're good programmer who's easy to get along with.

sgerenser 6y ago
I don’t think it would be legal for a company to allow someone to work for free (or anything less than minimum wage in the state in question). However offering to work at a very low hourly wage on a temporary/probationary basis could work.
bartread 6y ago
There's another one: 5) You might be a good programmer but your skillset in terms of technology stack(s) might not match up with what employers/recruiters are looking for. We interviewed a junior dev a couple of years back who had exclusively RPM and mainframe experience. We're a .NET/C#/SQL Server/TypeScript/React shop, with a bit of R and Python thrown in outside of the core technology team. I couldn't work out whether he couldn't get his head round our pair programming task (which isn't any kind of ridiculous invert a red/black tree type whiteboard problem) because he wasn't a good programmer or because the mental model was so different to what he was used to, and he really seemed to struggle with C#. I didn't give him a job because I thought the risk of having to let him go during probation was too high, which would have sucked given that he'd have been leaving a steady job to join us. Contrast this with another interviewee who was a nurse, and a self-taught programmer, who really did seem to get it. He nailed our assessments, and we made him an offer. He joined us and has worked out really well. It's not that I'm against hiring people with mismatched skills, or from an unusual professional background - far from it - but I need to see some glimmer of a good match during the selection process, particularly if somebody would be leaving stable employment to join us (not that we're unstable, but there's the probation period to successfully navigate) and/or - not really an issue now we're all WFH - they're planning to relocate to work with us.