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Everything profitable is ethical? I disagree. Supply chains are opaque and complex and there’s a diffusion of responsibility by the time you reach the level of

by mbil 6y ago

Everything profitable is ethical? I disagree. Supply chains are opaque and complex and there’s a diffusion of responsibility by the time you reach the level of decision-making consumers. I may give money to a company that is doing something unethical without my really knowing or thinking about it.

golergka 6y ago
> Everything profitable is ethical? I never made this claim, as ethics in this case is subjective: some things are ethical in some eyes and unethical in others, and profitability is the mechanism of reaching consensus between these views. Your point about transparency is valid, I have to admit. However, I don't think that it applies in the case of food production: most meat and animal products consumers are well-aware that in order to get meat, you need to kill someone, and if you want to keep milk and eggs as cheap as possible, you can't afford to treat the animals well.
- mbil 6y ago
  > I never made this claim Sorry, you're right. That's what I took away from your claim that profit encodes a signal for ethicality. I still am not sure I agree with the idea that profit represents a consensus for whether or not something is ethical. Specifically _because_ money is involved it seems like the equation is muddied. In the food production case, more ethical choices often come with a higher price tag. E.g., I believe that cage-free eggs are more ethical, but when I was broke I would buy the cheaper eggs because I was financially incentivized to do something I found less ethical, if only in a small way. And even now, if I am in a rush to buy eggs and the store is out of cage-free, I'll still make the less-ethical decision to do what is cheaper (in terms of energy). I wouldn't say that people's ethics are determined by how much money they have, but rather people may believe that one product option is more ethical than another, but considerations about money and convenience make them sometimes behave less ethically than they would without those constraints.
  - golergka 6y ago
    That's why I said that profitability represents not only what's ethical, but how important it is for people in their particular circumstances. Also, isn't ethics always dependent on circumstances you're in? For example, stealing is wrong - but many would argue that stealing to save you or your kids from hunger is ethical. That's the same kind of choice you're making when you choose to buy cheaper eggs when you can't afford cage-free.

by mbil 6y ago

golergka 6y ago

> Everything profitable is ethical? I never made this claim, as ethics in this case is subjective: some things are ethical in some eyes and unethical in others, and profitability is the mechanism of reaching consensus between these views. Your point about transparency is valid, I have to admit. However, I don't think that it applies in the case of food production: most meat and animal products consumers are well-aware that in order to get meat, you need to kill someone, and if you want to keep milk and eggs as cheap as possible, you can't afford to treat the animals well.

mbil 6y ago
> I never made this claim Sorry, you're right. That's what I took away from your claim that profit encodes a signal for ethicality. I still am not sure I agree with the idea that profit represents a consensus for whether or not something is ethical. Specifically _because_ money is involved it seems like the equation is muddied. In the food production case, more ethical choices often come with a higher price tag. E.g., I believe that cage-free eggs are more ethical, but when I was broke I would buy the cheaper eggs because I was financially incentivized to do something I found less ethical, if only in a small way. And even now, if I am in a rush to buy eggs and the store is out of cage-free, I'll still make the less-ethical decision to do what is cheaper (in terms of energy). I wouldn't say that people's ethics are determined by how much money they have, but rather people may believe that one product option is more ethical than another, but considerations about money and convenience make them sometimes behave less ethically than they would without those constraints.
- golergka 6y ago
  That's why I said that profitability represents not only what's ethical, but how important it is for people in their particular circumstances. Also, isn't ethics always dependent on circumstances you're in? For example, stealing is wrong - but many would argue that stealing to save you or your kids from hunger is ethical. That's the same kind of choice you're making when you choose to buy cheaper eggs when you can't afford cage-free.