6 ms·

They bury the lede: "In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says" Also: "In a 20

They bury the lede: "In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says" Also: "In a 2018 paper, he and colleagues showed that only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM, dropping to between 10 and 50% for those studying life sciences, physical sciences and maths."

bilbo0s 6y ago
In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says AND only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM I don't know man? The implication there is that there exist up to 30-40% of new computing and engineering grads who on the one hand are without jobs in STEM, and on the other are willing to leave the STEM jobs that offer lower wages on the table. It's been decades since I was a new STEM grad, but I still remember being a new grad. Only my opinion, but I feel something else must be going on.
- foolmeonce 6y ago
  I don't see the inconsistency you see? Every company I've talked to set their hiring standards to the top quartile, and doesn't want to pay more than the median wage. The large number of low salary jobs available doesn't mean there are any jobs for anyone not in the top quartile or many jobs someone in the top quartile should take.
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  There are good paying jobs outside STEM. Finance, consulting, media, law (especially IP law if you have a bachelors in STEM), etc. If an engineering grad decides to become an actuary or management consultant or investment banker, that doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't find a STEM job.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    A good number of lifescience graduates at regional colleges aim for nursing, also because it's about the only paying career that's left. The Department of Education reports a median salary of 54.5 kUSD for a nursing graduate at my regional college, meanwhile a chemical contract manufacturer nearby recently advertised a skilled BSc job for 35 kUSD. It's a mystery how you can make rent and student loan payment on that and have money left over for food.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    Ontario Society of Professional Engineers did a study on engineering labour maker in Ontario 5 years ago. Their findings show that this is not the reason behind the majority of people with engineering degrees doing non-engineering work. I don't know how the results compare to those in the US or UK, but it certainly is an eye-opening data point. Some highlights: - According to the 2011 NHS, only 29.7 per cent (67,045 out of 225,490) of employed individuals in Ontario with bachelor’s degrees or higher in engineering were working as engineers or engineering managers. A further 37 per cent (83,365 out of 225,490) worked in professional positions that normally require a university degree. In other words, only just over 65 per cent of employed Ontarians with engineering degrees were gainfully employed in professions that normally require or benefit from having a university degree. - Those who were not working as engineers and were working in positions that don’t necessarily require a degree made up fully 33.3 per cent (75,090 out of 225,490) of the total. So, as an engineering graduate, you are more likely to work in a job that does not require a degree, than in a job that requires an engineering degree. https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/advocacy/2015-crisis-in-engineering-labour-market.pdf https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/advocacy/2015-crisis...
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
      3 things: MBAs, Finance and Consulting. Engineering filters heavily for analytical skills and is math heavy.
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        That's one problem right there: overfinancialization crowding out the productive economy.
        908B64B197 6y ago
        I'd be curious to interview incoming freshmen. I'm sure there's a percentage of them enrolling in engineering with absolutely no intention of practicing it either.
        6y ago
- aroundtown 6y ago
  One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care. It took me over a year to land my first gig, only making $45k a year. No job since has paid me more. I had phone interviews that last for less than two minutes because I didn't have industry experience when the posting clearly no experience needed/ will train. I've had my time wasted by recruiters who send me to interviews that I'm not qualified for. Interviewed with Amazon at one point, got invited to onsite interview, when my contact ghosted me while trying to arrange travel. I've worked some programming jobs, all of them have been horrible in their own way. Alcoholics, cliques and fiefdoms, to being left to my own devices working alone often forgotten. At this point my wife thinks its time for me to go back to school and get another degree, leave programming behind. I love computers. I'm a good programmer. I have no idea what I would do if I wasn't in technology. What frustrates me the most, is the number of people I know in my personal life, that never got programming degrees that are now well paid programmers. All of them have degrees in non engineering fields, started non programming jobs that turned into programming jobs because they needed something coded up. The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. I guess where I'm trying to go with this, is that for some of us, we just can't seem to get ahead. Maybe we are just unlucky. Maybe we have been beaten down by the interview process or jobs and we don't want to deal with it anymore. I know for a fact that had I just taken a regular 9-5 non-stem job I'd be ahead of where I am right now. And what scares me is the thought that if I keep trying, I might not ever do better in STEM.... I love STEM...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. Yes, welcome to the real world of employment where your ability to network, sell yourself well, make your boss happy, be likable and play the politics game is what will make you successful rather than your ability to 1337 code. I know it's bitter, and most don't like to admit this, but tech is by no means a meritocracy even though the PR likes to make it one.
- rwbhn 6y ago
  Another possibility is that despite graduating from a computing or engineering program, many of these people still lack the skills STEM employers are looking for.
  - troupe 6y ago
    The article specifically references people going through a 3 month coding bootcamp. They are basically looking for an employer willing to pay to give them on the job training. This can work well, but their salary expectations need to be somewhat in line with what their skill sets are.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  It's even more fun when you look at data from elsewhere in the world. I've worked with incredible engineers from France... here in America. And yet the other day there was this poster whining he couldn't find great engineering talent in France. He blamed it on French people being lazy, of course.
troupe 6y ago
> "In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says" I can't imagine that someone whose sole credential in software engineering is a three month course is going to be offered any amount that is too low for their current skill level. You are basically hiring someone to train on the job. That can work out well for both parties, but imagining that 3 months of training makes you worth $100k per year is delusional.

bilbo0s 6y ago

In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says AND only about 60 to 70% of US computing and engineering graduates land jobs in STEM I don't know man? The implication there is that there exist up to 30-40% of new computing and engineering grads who on the one hand are without jobs in STEM, and on the other are willing to leave the STEM jobs that offer lower wages on the table. It's been decades since I was a new STEM grad, but I still remember being a new grad. Only my opinion, but I feel something else must be going on.

foolmeonce 6y ago
I don't see the inconsistency you see? Every company I've talked to set their hiring standards to the top quartile, and doesn't want to pay more than the median wage. The large number of low salary jobs available doesn't mean there are any jobs for anyone not in the top quartile or many jobs someone in the top quartile should take.
dcolkitt 6y ago
There are good paying jobs outside STEM. Finance, consulting, media, law (especially IP law if you have a bachelors in STEM), etc. If an engineering grad decides to become an actuary or management consultant or investment banker, that doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't find a STEM job.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  A good number of lifescience graduates at regional colleges aim for nursing, also because it's about the only paying career that's left. The Department of Education reports a median salary of 54.5 kUSD for a nursing graduate at my regional college, meanwhile a chemical contract manufacturer nearby recently advertised a skilled BSc job for 35 kUSD. It's a mystery how you can make rent and student loan payment on that and have money left over for food.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  Ontario Society of Professional Engineers did a study on engineering labour maker in Ontario 5 years ago. Their findings show that this is not the reason behind the majority of people with engineering degrees doing non-engineering work. I don't know how the results compare to those in the US or UK, but it certainly is an eye-opening data point. Some highlights: - According to the 2011 NHS, only 29.7 per cent (67,045 out of 225,490) of employed individuals in Ontario with bachelor’s degrees or higher in engineering were working as engineers or engineering managers. A further 37 per cent (83,365 out of 225,490) worked in professional positions that normally require a university degree. In other words, only just over 65 per cent of employed Ontarians with engineering degrees were gainfully employed in professions that normally require or benefit from having a university degree. - Those who were not working as engineers and were working in positions that don’t necessarily require a degree made up fully 33.3 per cent (75,090 out of 225,490) of the total. So, as an engineering graduate, you are more likely to work in a job that does not require a degree, than in a job that requires an engineering degree. https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/advocacy/2015-crisis-in-engineering-labour-market.pdf https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/advocacy/2015-crisis...
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    3 things: MBAs, Finance and Consulting. Engineering filters heavily for analytical skills and is math heavy.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      That's one problem right there: overfinancialization crowding out the productive economy.
      - 908B64B197 6y ago
        I'd be curious to interview incoming freshmen. I'm sure there's a percentage of them enrolling in engineering with absolutely no intention of practicing it either.
        6y ago
aroundtown 6y ago
One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care. It took me over a year to land my first gig, only making $45k a year. No job since has paid me more. I had phone interviews that last for less than two minutes because I didn't have industry experience when the posting clearly no experience needed/ will train. I've had my time wasted by recruiters who send me to interviews that I'm not qualified for. Interviewed with Amazon at one point, got invited to onsite interview, when my contact ghosted me while trying to arrange travel. I've worked some programming jobs, all of them have been horrible in their own way. Alcoholics, cliques and fiefdoms, to being left to my own devices working alone often forgotten. At this point my wife thinks its time for me to go back to school and get another degree, leave programming behind. I love computers. I'm a good programmer. I have no idea what I would do if I wasn't in technology. What frustrates me the most, is the number of people I know in my personal life, that never got programming degrees that are now well paid programmers. All of them have degrees in non engineering fields, started non programming jobs that turned into programming jobs because they needed something coded up. The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. I guess where I'm trying to go with this, is that for some of us, we just can't seem to get ahead. Maybe we are just unlucky. Maybe we have been beaten down by the interview process or jobs and we don't want to deal with it anymore. I know for a fact that had I just taken a regular 9-5 non-stem job I'd be ahead of where I am right now. And what scares me is the thought that if I keep trying, I might not ever do better in STEM.... I love STEM...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. Yes, welcome to the real world of employment where your ability to network, sell yourself well, make your boss happy, be likable and play the politics game is what will make you successful rather than your ability to 1337 code. I know it's bitter, and most don't like to admit this, but tech is by no means a meritocracy even though the PR likes to make it one.
rwbhn 6y ago
Another possibility is that despite graduating from a computing or engineering program, many of these people still lack the skills STEM employers are looking for.
- troupe 6y ago
  The article specifically references people going through a 3 month coding bootcamp. They are basically looking for an employer willing to pay to give them on the job training. This can work well, but their salary expectations need to be somewhat in line with what their skill sets are.
908B64B197 6y ago
It's even more fun when you look at data from elsewhere in the world. I've worked with incredible engineers from France... here in America. And yet the other day there was this poster whining he couldn't find great engineering talent in France. He blamed it on French people being lazy, of course.

troupe 6y ago

> "In reality, employers report difficulty hiring because the wages they offer don’t match the skills they’re after, she says" I can't imagine that someone whose sole credential in software engineering is a three month course is going to be offered any amount that is too low for their current skill level. You are basically hiring someone to train on the job. That can work out well for both parties, but imagining that 3 months of training makes you worth $100k per year is delusional.