4 ms·

This is a reducto ad absurdum takeaway, but I wonder if at some point will we consider the humans required to create said food, part of the "animals treated as

This is a reducto ad absurdum takeaway, but I wonder if at some point will we consider the humans required to create said food, part of the "animals treated as commodities"? Unless humans are somehow exempt from the list, I don't see how this argument is feasible in the realistic sense. Humans are frequently treated as commodities, as any team over the size of 1 needs to delegate responsibilities to people. Hence, "doctor, lawyer, police officer, teacher, pilot" are all words that describe a delegated responsibility of a human, and therefore the commodity that they represent. "We need more firefighters!" is a phrase that literally treats humans as commodities - showing how replaceable they are. How about whenever you ask a friend, or a family member to pick something up for you from the grocery store? Are they not being treated as a commodity to suit a need in that moment? However idealistic the notion, being a "sentient being" isn't mutually exclusive from being treated as a commodity. I understand the empathic argument in support of veganism full well (and I empathize with it), but there is such a thing as runaway-empathy, to the point that it becomes unproductive conversation. This is a win in an aim to reduce unnecessary suffering and pain. I'll take it as such. Seeking some sort of absolutism though, I can't wrap my mind around that. It gives me some serious Sith vibes...

vulcan01 6y ago
> Are they not being treated as a commodity to suit a need in that moment? Kant calls this: using people as a means to an end.
netrus 6y ago
Firefighters get something in return for being firefighters. Otherwise, it is slavery, and it is indeed feasible to argue against any slavery. The animals in the farm get nothing in return, don't have a choice. It is hard to argue their life is better than no life at all. No matter how philosophical you get, it is possible to be vegan, you only have to sacrifice some pleasure. If you value your pleasure over the miserable life of the animal, that certainly is something one can criticise without being inconsistent because "humans also need to work to buy food". If you actually want to argue for better workers' rights and redistribution from the rich to the poor, to end the missery of the working man: I think that is a good point :)
dzolob 6y ago
Well, there are whole continents where people are treated as commodities. Working 16 hours a day for one or two dollars while living in unhealthy, unmerciful environments is not drastically different from being breeded for exploitation.
- kempbellt 6y ago
  To quote you: > There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply
  - dzolob 6y ago
    Gladly. I invite you to come to my country and see how farmers/maquila workers live, in what conditions do they work, who they work for and which populations most benefit from this farmers/workers living conditions. As I said before, empathy is a great quality to cultivate, and so does awareness.
    - kempbellt 6y ago
      I'm not sure you understand how citation works. A first-hand account of farmers' living conditions in your local area isn't a reliable source that shows that there are "whole continents where people are treated as commodities". Nor do I see how this specifically relates to the underlying topic of veganism. Perhaps you can link the two topics so that I can see the point you are making? > As I said before, empathy is a great quality to cultivate, and so does awareness. I don't recall disagreeing with this.
      - dzolob 6y ago
        I don' see why you have to be rude, but since we are here, if you need citations from a prestigious peer review journal to acknowledge this fact, you need to read more, travel more, hell, just change the channel more. The world bank defines people living below its poverty line as persons living in households where the total income is below 1.9 US dollars, and acknowledge 689 million people living there[0]. "At higher poverty lines, 24.1 percent of the world lived on less than $3.20 a day and 43.6 percent on less than $5.50 a day in 2017"[0] I you had read carefully, you might have noticed that my response was to the questioning on treating people as commodities, and since we are now on rude territory, you appear to me to be living in a cozy bubble, and can use some new knowledge. In my country, México, 52.4 million people are estimated to be in poverty (7.4 mill in extreme poverty)[1]. In rural areas, 29% of the population (2013 data)[2] had food shortages so no, this is not anecdotal. I could go all academic, citations included, and tell you where does the avocado you eat comes from, who controls its growth and in which situation the people who grow it live, but I think it’s easier for me and maybe life changing for you to take a trip to Michoacán and see it for your(anecdotal)self. [0] https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#:~:text=The%20global%20extreme%20poverty%20rate,%245.50%20a%20day%20in%202017 https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#:~:text=.... [1] https://www.coneval.org.mx/Medicion/Paginas/PobrezaInicio.aspx https://www.coneval.org.mx/Medicion/Paginas/PobrezaInicio.as... [2] https://www.coneval.org.mx/Informes/Evaluacion/Cruzada%20contra%20el%20Hambre/Caract_Prod_hogares_rurales.pdf https://www.coneval.org.mx/Informes/Evaluacion/Cruzada%20con...

vulcan01 6y ago

> Are they not being treated as a commodity to suit a need in that moment? Kant calls this: using people as a means to an end.

netrus 6y ago

Firefighters get something in return for being firefighters. Otherwise, it is slavery, and it is indeed feasible to argue against any slavery. The animals in the farm get nothing in return, don't have a choice. It is hard to argue their life is better than no life at all. No matter how philosophical you get, it is possible to be vegan, you only have to sacrifice some pleasure. If you value your pleasure over the miserable life of the animal, that certainly is something one can criticise without being inconsistent because "humans also need to work to buy food". If you actually want to argue for better workers' rights and redistribution from the rich to the poor, to end the missery of the working man: I think that is a good point :)

dzolob 6y ago

Well, there are whole continents where people are treated as commodities. Working 16 hours a day for one or two dollars while living in unhealthy, unmerciful environments is not drastically different from being breeded for exploitation.

kempbellt 6y ago
To quote you: > There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply
- dzolob 6y ago
  Gladly. I invite you to come to my country and see how farmers/maquila workers live, in what conditions do they work, who they work for and which populations most benefit from this farmers/workers living conditions. As I said before, empathy is a great quality to cultivate, and so does awareness.
  - kempbellt 6y ago
    I'm not sure you understand how citation works. A first-hand account of farmers' living conditions in your local area isn't a reliable source that shows that there are "whole continents where people are treated as commodities". Nor do I see how this specifically relates to the underlying topic of veganism. Perhaps you can link the two topics so that I can see the point you are making? > As I said before, empathy is a great quality to cultivate, and so does awareness. I don't recall disagreeing with this.
    - dzolob 6y ago
      I don' see why you have to be rude, but since we are here, if you need citations from a prestigious peer review journal to acknowledge this fact, you need to read more, travel more, hell, just change the channel more. The world bank defines people living below its poverty line as persons living in households where the total income is below 1.9 US dollars, and acknowledge 689 million people living there[0]. "At higher poverty lines, 24.1 percent of the world lived on less than $3.20 a day and 43.6 percent on less than $5.50 a day in 2017"[0] I you had read carefully, you might have noticed that my response was to the questioning on treating people as commodities, and since we are now on rude territory, you appear to me to be living in a cozy bubble, and can use some new knowledge. In my country, México, 52.4 million people are estimated to be in poverty (7.4 mill in extreme poverty)[1]. In rural areas, 29% of the population (2013 data)[2] had food shortages so no, this is not anecdotal. I could go all academic, citations included, and tell you where does the avocado you eat comes from, who controls its growth and in which situation the people who grow it live, but I think it’s easier for me and maybe life changing for you to take a trip to Michoacán and see it for your(anecdotal)self. [0] https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#:~:text=The%20global%20extreme%20poverty%20rate,%245.50%20a%20day%20in%202017 https://www.worldbank.org/en/topic/poverty/overview#:~:text=.... [1] https://www.coneval.org.mx/Medicion/Paginas/PobrezaInicio.aspx https://www.coneval.org.mx/Medicion/Paginas/PobrezaInicio.as... [2] https://www.coneval.org.mx/Informes/Evaluacion/Cruzada%20contra%20el%20Hambre/Caract_Prod_hogares_rurales.pdf https://www.coneval.org.mx/Informes/Evaluacion/Cruzada%20con...