4 ms·

There were just as many religious motivations behind slavery and segregation as there was for it - actually more, in reality. In truth, evangelical Christianity

There were just as many religious motivations behind slavery and segregation as there was for it - actually more, in reality. In truth, evangelical Christianity has been one of the primary tools used to advance and justify segregation and slavery throughout western history, with some going so far as to equate rejection of slavery as no different than rejecting Christ. The predominant denomination of the south, Southern Baptist, was a denomination made because the northerners refused to appoint slavers as missionaries. The KKK has been a faithful supporter of Protestant Christianity. There was notable involvement in the abolitionist movement among northern Protestants, and civil rights activism among catholics, Jews, and northern Protestants - but acting as though that is in any way representative of American religion is missing 99% of the history. The major forces in American religion have always been opponents of civil rights of nonwhites, and it’s only quite recently, with the death and sanctification of MLK that they’ve been revising this history, and lauding MLK instead of calling him a reverse racist. Religion has always broken down among ethnic lines, the majority of American religion defended slavery and segregation as God’s Will.

hprotagonist 6y ago
I certainly agree that white evangelical christianity in its modern (post-1619) incarnation is so completely entangled with american slavery that they’re indistinguishable. I don’t agree at all that that statement or population is somehow emblematic of “the real religion”, because the unspoken priors there are precisely the sort of white- and christian- centric circular definitions that, for example, white american evangelicals believe and promulgate. It’s giving up the game before you even get started. Tangentially, the sanctification of Dr. King as an american saint is part of an extremely long tradition of blunting the impact of prophets. If you put someone up on a pedestal you add them to a history that is done and somehow over and safe now. We remember “i have a dream” and tacitly conclude that the dream is realized now; we forget that King died largely hated and in the process of screaming against the war and organizing for (mostly white) trash collectors. And we forget that the work never stops. To conclude more hopefully, though, I’d also say that people do keep the flame alive — and, i suspect and pray, we’ll look back at this year as a time when the embers were fanned back up into a flame to get some more work done at a great cost.
- sonotathrowaway 6y ago
  I don’t want to make any claims as to ‘real religion’, just that religions reflect the values of the communities that hold them. As to American evangelicals I don’t think we have a lot of disagreement, but I remembered an an excerpt from “Letters from a Birmingham Jail” that I thought was very apt: I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious-education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest?"
FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
> evangelical Christianity has been one of the primary tools used to advance and justify segregation and slavery throughout western history This is right if you say "America" instead of "the west". And then you're talking about a timescale of maybe 200 years, tops. But when you say "the west" you're talking about a longer history of Christianity in Europe. You're talking about the Catholic Church, the Protestant Reformation, all that. And on long historical timescales, Christianity's record is quite a bit more complicated than that. You can certainly associate it with various sins -- it suppressed the pagans, it launched the crusades, in Spain it justified conquest in the New World, and (though it was its own team) it often sided with royalty and aristocracy. And yet it was not an essentially "pro-slavery" religion. That would be to project relatively recent American evangelicalism backwards onto the rest of Christianity in a totally ahistorical way. > There was notable involvement in the abolitionist movement among northern Protestants, and civil rights activism among catholics, Jews, and northern Protestants - but acting as though that is in any way representative of American religion is missing 99% of the history. There used to be a phrase, "mainline Protestant", used to distinguish "normal" Protestants from evangelicals. They're dying now, but those churches used to have huge membership. The kind of Christianity that was "centered" in the past in America (at least in the North) was //not at all// the southern Evangelical variety that so often claims the word "Christian" these days. You're missing the amount of change that has occurred. The Evangelicals were "weird". Your discussion of "Catholics and Jews" in the context of "abolitionism" is also confused. Catholics and Jews were not //totally absent// from America at that time, but it really wasn't until later that they came over in large numbers. Like, Irish were just arriving around the time of the Civil War (and hadn't even won respect for themselves yet, let alone taking up the political cause of others), and Jews started to really show up later around the turn of the century. You're ignoring the timeline of immigration. Finally -- your whole dichotomy of "American religion" vs... atheism(?) is confused. In the past, atheism was taboo -- "everyone" was religious to some extent -- and //even so// things like the Civil War happened. Why? Because it was religion that //animated// those movements, particularly within the emerging "white" ethnic group (whose material interests they did not necessarily serve in an obvious way). Mostly, American history has not been "religious people vs nonreligious people". It's been different kinds of religious people fighting over the contents of their religions. Mostly, the battle lines have been drawn right //through// Christianity in America.

hprotagonist 6y ago

I certainly agree that white evangelical christianity in its modern (post-1619) incarnation is so completely entangled with american slavery that they’re indistinguishable. I don’t agree at all that that statement or population is somehow emblematic of “the real religion”, because the unspoken priors there are precisely the sort of white- and christian- centric circular definitions that, for example, white american evangelicals believe and promulgate. It’s giving up the game before you even get started. Tangentially, the sanctification of Dr. King as an american saint is part of an extremely long tradition of blunting the impact of prophets. If you put someone up on a pedestal you add them to a history that is done and somehow over and safe now. We remember “i have a dream” and tacitly conclude that the dream is realized now; we forget that King died largely hated and in the process of screaming against the war and organizing for (mostly white) trash collectors. And we forget that the work never stops. To conclude more hopefully, though, I’d also say that people do keep the flame alive — and, i suspect and pray, we’ll look back at this year as a time when the embers were fanned back up into a flame to get some more work done at a great cost.

sonotathrowaway 6y ago
I don’t want to make any claims as to ‘real religion’, just that religions reflect the values of the communities that hold them. As to American evangelicals I don’t think we have a lot of disagreement, but I remembered an an excerpt from “Letters from a Birmingham Jail” that I thought was very apt: I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious-education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest?"

FooBarBizBazz 6y ago

> evangelical Christianity has been one of the primary tools used to advance and justify segregation and slavery throughout western history This is right if you say "America" instead of "the west". And then you're talking about a timescale of maybe 200 years, tops. But when you say "the west" you're talking about a longer history of Christianity in Europe. You're talking about the Catholic Church, the Protestant Reformation, all that. And on long historical timescales, Christianity's record is quite a bit more complicated than that. You can certainly associate it with various sins -- it suppressed the pagans, it launched the crusades, in Spain it justified conquest in the New World, and (though it was its own team) it often sided with royalty and aristocracy. And yet it was not an essentially "pro-slavery" religion. That would be to project relatively recent American evangelicalism backwards onto the rest of Christianity in a totally ahistorical way. > There was notable involvement in the abolitionist movement among northern Protestants, and civil rights activism among catholics, Jews, and northern Protestants - but acting as though that is in any way representative of American religion is missing 99% of the history. There used to be a phrase, "mainline Protestant", used to distinguish "normal" Protestants from evangelicals. They're dying now, but those churches used to have huge membership. The kind of Christianity that was "centered" in the past in America (at least in the North) was //not at all// the southern Evangelical variety that so often claims the word "Christian" these days. You're missing the amount of change that has occurred. The Evangelicals were "weird". Your discussion of "Catholics and Jews" in the context of "abolitionism" is also confused. Catholics and Jews were not //totally absent// from America at that time, but it really wasn't until later that they came over in large numbers. Like, Irish were just arriving around the time of the Civil War (and hadn't even won respect for themselves yet, let alone taking up the political cause of others), and Jews started to really show up later around the turn of the century. You're ignoring the timeline of immigration. Finally -- your whole dichotomy of "American religion" vs... atheism(?) is confused. In the past, atheism was taboo -- "everyone" was religious to some extent -- and //even so// things like the Civil War happened. Why? Because it was religion that //animated// those movements, particularly within the emerging "white" ethnic group (whose material interests they did not necessarily serve in an obvious way). Mostly, American history has not been "religious people vs nonreligious people". It's been different kinds of religious people fighting over the contents of their religions. Mostly, the battle lines have been drawn right //through// Christianity in America.