17 ms·

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the env

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new available options are scaling that back in favor of more land-use, open space, slower growth. > Sorry, I'm a dreamer I guess, continuously disappointed by a world that doesn't seem to be able to set any significant goals nor pursue them at large scale unless it's for profit and likely at the cost of the rest of the world. You're free to consume whatever you want. EDIT: my opening sentence is not fair. But it invited a lot of response. That can walk a thin line but in this case I figure it worked out. If my post were purely inflammatory, then it would be counter-productive but I don't see it that way.

leetcrew 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. is that surprising? most vegans I know care more about the animals' quality of life than whether or not they end up getting slaughtered. this is a large part of why they are vegans and not merely vegetarians. interestingly, I find that they tend to be pretty accepting of hunting.
kevinmgranger 6y ago
Assuming all vegans feel the way the person you're replying to is a bit of a broad brush, no?
- slothtrop 6y ago
  It's a broad one. We've been here often, if for the sake of argument you control for issues that are brought forth like suffering or the environment, the overwhelming response will default back to saying those thing actually didn't matter because meat is murder anyway. Granted "some vegans" would be more precise, but that's still the sentiment.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    The parent didn't indicate they were a vegan at all, they just described an ideal. You were just so ready to attack vegans that you don't appear to have read what they wrote.
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      > you don't appear to have read what they wrote. I don't see how you could surmise that.
eplanit 6y ago
Soon Jainism will become popular, is my prediction. Someone will package twigs and leaves as a Jainist snack pack and make a fortune.... I'd better get started! /s
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  VC pitch: We'll make money on the supplements our customers have to take.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
tashoecraft 6y ago
Nothing is ever enough for anyone. Look at any discussion here. "This software should be fully free without ads", "this license isn't permissive enough", it's not distrbuted, it's not blockchain, it is blockchain, it's written in java. And I think it's fine. We need people on the extremes in order to put pressure and advance things, as extremes rarely get implemented, but meeting in the middle does.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  > We need people on the extremes After 2020, I'd like to see more in the middle. I think extremes are overrepresented.
  - lisper 6y ago
    Human nature is very hard to change. What we really need is a societal mechanism that somehow forces (or persuades) those on the extremes to compromise. The U.S. Constitution was designed to be such a mechanism, but it doesn't seem to be standing up well to new technologies.
    - leetcrew 6y ago
      seems to me the constitution is pretty much working as designed. during polarized times, it makes it very difficult to change things. if you believe all the terrible things written about trump in the news (I do, with some reservations), it's sort of remarkable how little damage he managed to do. we (probably) just elected joe biden, who is almost the definition of a compromise candidate.
      - lisper 6y ago
        > it's sort of remarkable how little damage he managed to do I think it's much too early to assess the totality of (let me put this in the least inflammatory way that I can think of) Trump's long-term impact. At the very least, he has re-formed the American judiciary, delayed action on climate change by four years, and eroded or eliminated many of the societal and governmental norms that are essential for the functioning of our society (e.g. accepting the results of elections). But even now, we have North Korea with ICBMs and more nuclear weapons than before, Iran closer to a nuclear weapon than before, and probably a hundred thousand people or so dead from Covid who might not have died if Trump had not politicized the wearing of masks. That's not "little damage" by my reckoning. There are also a few hundred innocent children who were forcibly separated from their parents and likely will never see them again because of shoddy record-keeping. Despite the relatively small numbers, the sheer monstrousness of this makes it impossible to sweep it under the rug. Trump effectively abandoned the moral high ground that America has held since the end of World War II. America is no longer perceived as a reliable partner, leader of the free world, and beacon of hope. I suppose reasonable people can disagree in their assessment of the long-term impact of this, but in my book, that's not "little damage." [ADDENDUM] Something else Trump has done is form a significant contingent of the citizenry who now equate the interests of the country with Trump's personal interests, i.e. who believe Trump when he says that we face existential threats that he alone can fix. Ironically, they do this in the name of patriotism and freedom, utterly oblivious to the historical precedents that show time and time again that cults of personality lead to tyranny and ruin. Thankfully, we have not yet crossed that threshold. But we were standing on the brink, and it won't take much to bring us back to it. [ADDENDUM2] There's also this: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/william-barr-lame-duck-execution-spree-is-unprecedented.html?via=recirc_engaged https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/william-barr-lam...
dzolob 6y ago
As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.
- balabaster 6y ago
  Empathy is great, but unfortunately it's not a fix. There's only so much empathy we can have for the environment around us without giving away everything and getting nothing in return. Having empathy for the needs of your fellow human beings is still empathy, even if it comes at the cost of empathy for animals. Empathy for animals at the cost of empathy for your fellow humans is no more a solution than the other way around. So empathy just doesn't fix everything.
  - the_gastropod 6y ago
    That's a false dichotomy. Who's advocating for less empathy for humans?
    - overboard2 6y ago
      The people who want humans to live with as limited a footprint as possible, their standard of living be dammed
    - balabaster 6y ago
      Nobody's advocating less empathy for humans, what I'm suggesting is that according to spoon theory, there's only so much in a day you can give a shit about before you burn out [YMMV]. I'm suggesting that when you put all your empathy into caring for one thing at the cost of another, typically yourself, it's a hard path to walk. Empathy as a fix all, isn't. There needs to be balance between what's reasonable, feasible and practical, for our environment, for the eco-system and for us as humans. Empathy for sure is necessary, but it's only part of the solution, not the whole solution.
      - layoric 6y ago
wpietri 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but have it all be from a replicator, I'd do it in a heartbeat. So keep pushing, vegans!
- JacobSuperslav 6y ago
  Hacker News, where technology > empathy
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of research revealing that plants can communicate, issue warnings about diseases and bug infestations. They so-called get stressed when it rains, and their metabolisms startle during fast light changes (like eclipses). More shockingly, they release all the nutrients they store when they sense they're going to die, so other plants can thrive from their remains and nutrient stocks (writing this really moves me). This is complete opposite of "plants are well, just alive wood" hypothesis. When I share this research with vegans and vegetarians, their response is: crickets. Moreover, most hardcore ones suggest that we don't ever need meat to thrive or live a healthy life however, we've evolved that far because we consumed meat. Meat made us and, same people are ignorant of this fact. I can understand that we need to grow these animals more ethically. This is why I always try to buy ethically produced food. I understand that these animals are adding great amounts of greenhouse gases. I can understand that we may live well with less meat. However, we need to understand, some of these animals are evolved under our reign and they may not survive outside farms for long. The cattle are grass puppies now and are essentially "useful pets". We need to understand where we are to move forward. Ignorance and fight won't take us anywhere. We need to talk openly and need to put our prejudice aside. We need to learn and understand first.
chrisweekly 6y ago
"Nothing's ever enough for vegans." I stopped reading right there. - non-vegan with low tolerance for counterproductive comments
kaycebasques 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. No need for a blanket prejudiced statement like this.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  I'll rescind it the day I see a vegan suggest there is such a thing as ethical meat/egg consumption. It will never happen.
  - kaycebasques 6y ago
    I don't have a problem with someone who raises a chicken, uses the chicken's natural existence to improve the local environment (fertilizer, etc.), lets that chicken have a life similar to its life in nature, and gives it a lifespan that isn't dramatically shorter than what it experiences in nature. Eating that chicken and its eggs seems fine to me because that seems like a mutualistic relationship. Asking me to endorse factory farming is tough because it provides literally none of those things, all of which seem like pretty reasonable definitions of a decent life for a creature. If you can verify that the chicken/eggs you bought came from that situation, I don't have a problem with that. I know a lot of brands claim an image like this, but let's be honest, no one is verifying that before purchasing because we know it's probably not true. In other words, I am a vegan, and I just suggested a situation of ethical meat/egg consumption. As I said before, I think you're prejudiced towards vegans and don't really understand what we're about. I suggest listening more to what vegans have to say about veganism rather than what meateaters have to say about it.
    - slothtrop 6y ago
      > I suggest listening more to what vegans have to say about veganism rather than what meateaters have to say about it. That is precisely what brought me to my conclusion. > As I said before, I think you're prejudiced towards vegans and don't really understand what we're about. To the extent that I see the vocal base as having an absolutist view compared to yours, yes. If you're insinuating more connotations associated with your choice of words prejudice, no. You don't know me. That view is not terribly dissimilar from my own, so I'll grant I understand it well. Congrats on defying my expectations. I was confident you would not.
WhyNotHugo 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Getting human slaves out of the food production process is a great first step, but I like to think that we'll eventually spot inflicting pain on _any_ animal to produce our food.
cute_boi 6y ago
> "You're free to consume whatever you want." Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. You're not free to consume whatever you want. It may be legal but not ethical.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  You're taking this to mean far more than it obviously is meant to mean.
bitwize 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Causing zero harm to animals is enough. It's totally within reach, too. You just have to take responsibility and DO IT.
- standardUser 6y ago
  If you go by the actual definition of what defines an animal, it is literally impossible not to constantly harm animals. Either the rabbits caught in the threshers, the tiny organism we step on, the mites on our face we consume unknowingly. Even the strictest Jainist can't stop from annihilating an uncountable number of tiny animals that live in, on and around us. (though to their credit, they sure do try).
- slothtrop 6y ago
  Thanks for proving my point :)
- LunaSea 6y ago
  Sent from by device built my slave labour in China.
dariusj18 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Just to jump in with an additional point, vegans would never be ok with this. I believe you might be thinking vegetarians, which as a vegetarian, this is good news, and is enough for me.
toiletfuneral 6y ago
fuck off
mamon 6y ago
> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. The most funny argument used by vegans is: "we are closer to nature". There's nothing more natural than animals eating each other. And no, humans are not herbivores. Some primates might be, but human evolution started the moment our monkey ancestors decided to get off the tree and eat meat. By promoting veganism you're trying to undo the last 3-5 millions of years of human evolution. Talk about Catholic Church pushing us back to Middle ages... /s Another argument that I hate: by not eating animals you reduce suffering. If we take that to it's logical conclusion, the only way for you to not cause any sufferning is to die. That's why Buddhists (for whom "reducing suffering" is a religious imperative) came up with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu Life is an infininte circle of joy, pleasure, sadness, suffering, death... If you try to eliminate one of them you are against the life itself.

leetcrew 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. is that surprising? most vegans I know care more about the animals' quality of life than whether or not they end up getting slaughtered. this is a large part of why they are vegans and not merely vegetarians. interestingly, I find that they tend to be pretty accepting of hunting.

kevinmgranger 6y ago

Assuming all vegans feel the way the person you're replying to is a bit of a broad brush, no?

slothtrop 6y ago
It's a broad one. We've been here often, if for the sake of argument you control for issues that are brought forth like suffering or the environment, the overwhelming response will default back to saying those thing actually didn't matter because meat is murder anyway. Granted "some vegans" would be more precise, but that's still the sentiment.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  The parent didn't indicate they were a vegan at all, they just described an ideal. You were just so ready to attack vegans that you don't appear to have read what they wrote.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    > you don't appear to have read what they wrote. I don't see how you could surmise that.

eplanit 6y ago

Soon Jainism will become popular, is my prediction. Someone will package twigs and leaves as a Jainist snack pack and make a fortune.... I'd better get started! /s

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
VC pitch: We'll make money on the supplements our customers have to take.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

tashoecraft 6y ago

Nothing is ever enough for anyone. Look at any discussion here. "This software should be fully free without ads", "this license isn't permissive enough", it's not distrbuted, it's not blockchain, it is blockchain, it's written in java. And I think it's fine. We need people on the extremes in order to put pressure and advance things, as extremes rarely get implemented, but meeting in the middle does.

slothtrop 6y ago
> We need people on the extremes After 2020, I'd like to see more in the middle. I think extremes are overrepresented.
- lisper 6y ago
  Human nature is very hard to change. What we really need is a societal mechanism that somehow forces (or persuades) those on the extremes to compromise. The U.S. Constitution was designed to be such a mechanism, but it doesn't seem to be standing up well to new technologies.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    seems to me the constitution is pretty much working as designed. during polarized times, it makes it very difficult to change things. if you believe all the terrible things written about trump in the news (I do, with some reservations), it's sort of remarkable how little damage he managed to do. we (probably) just elected joe biden, who is almost the definition of a compromise candidate.
    - lisper 6y ago
      > it's sort of remarkable how little damage he managed to do I think it's much too early to assess the totality of (let me put this in the least inflammatory way that I can think of) Trump's long-term impact. At the very least, he has re-formed the American judiciary, delayed action on climate change by four years, and eroded or eliminated many of the societal and governmental norms that are essential for the functioning of our society (e.g. accepting the results of elections). But even now, we have North Korea with ICBMs and more nuclear weapons than before, Iran closer to a nuclear weapon than before, and probably a hundred thousand people or so dead from Covid who might not have died if Trump had not politicized the wearing of masks. That's not "little damage" by my reckoning. There are also a few hundred innocent children who were forcibly separated from their parents and likely will never see them again because of shoddy record-keeping. Despite the relatively small numbers, the sheer monstrousness of this makes it impossible to sweep it under the rug. Trump effectively abandoned the moral high ground that America has held since the end of World War II. America is no longer perceived as a reliable partner, leader of the free world, and beacon of hope. I suppose reasonable people can disagree in their assessment of the long-term impact of this, but in my book, that's not "little damage." [ADDENDUM] Something else Trump has done is form a significant contingent of the citizenry who now equate the interests of the country with Trump's personal interests, i.e. who believe Trump when he says that we face existential threats that he alone can fix. Ironically, they do this in the name of patriotism and freedom, utterly oblivious to the historical precedents that show time and time again that cults of personality lead to tyranny and ruin. Thankfully, we have not yet crossed that threshold. But we were standing on the brink, and it won't take much to bring us back to it. [ADDENDUM2] There's also this: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/william-barr-lame-duck-execution-spree-is-unprecedented.html?via=recirc_engaged https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/11/william-barr-lam...

dzolob 6y ago

As long as animals are treated as commodities instead of sentient beings, yeah, nothing is going to be enough for vegans. Empathy is a great quality to cultivate.

balabaster 6y ago
Empathy is great, but unfortunately it's not a fix. There's only so much empathy we can have for the environment around us without giving away everything and getting nothing in return. Having empathy for the needs of your fellow human beings is still empathy, even if it comes at the cost of empathy for animals. Empathy for animals at the cost of empathy for your fellow humans is no more a solution than the other way around. So empathy just doesn't fix everything.
- the_gastropod 6y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. Who's advocating for less empathy for humans?
  - overboard2 6y ago
    The people who want humans to live with as limited a footprint as possible, their standard of living be dammed
  - balabaster 6y ago
    Nobody's advocating less empathy for humans, what I'm suggesting is that according to spoon theory, there's only so much in a day you can give a shit about before you burn out [YMMV]. I'm suggesting that when you put all your empathy into caring for one thing at the cost of another, typically yourself, it's a hard path to walk. Empathy as a fix all, isn't. There needs to be balance between what's reasonable, feasible and practical, for our environment, for the eco-system and for us as humans. Empathy for sure is necessary, but it's only part of the solution, not the whole solution.
    - layoric 6y ago

wpietri 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. That's a weird complaint on a site about eternal disruption, eternal improvement of things that are basically fine already. I'm an omnivore, and I'm comfortable with it. But that doesn't keep me from recognizing the ethical issues with killing and controlling other beings to survive. I really appreciate people pushing the envelope on this. If I could eat basically the same diet but have it all be from a replicator, I'd do it in a heartbeat. So keep pushing, vegans!

JacobSuperslav 6y ago
Hacker News, where technology > empathy
- bayindirh 6y ago
  I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of research revealing that plants can communicate, issue warnings about diseases and bug infestations. They so-called get stressed when it rains, and their metabolisms startle during fast light changes (like eclipses). More shockingly, they release all the nutrients they store when they sense they're going to die, so other plants can thrive from their remains and nutrient stocks (writing this really moves me). This is complete opposite of "plants are well, just alive wood" hypothesis. When I share this research with vegans and vegetarians, their response is: crickets. Moreover, most hardcore ones suggest that we don't ever need meat to thrive or live a healthy life however, we've evolved that far because we consumed meat. Meat made us and, same people are ignorant of this fact. I can understand that we need to grow these animals more ethically. This is why I always try to buy ethically produced food. I understand that these animals are adding great amounts of greenhouse gases. I can understand that we may live well with less meat. However, we need to understand, some of these animals are evolved under our reign and they may not survive outside farms for long. The cattle are grass puppies now and are essentially "useful pets". We need to understand where we are to move forward. Ignorance and fight won't take us anywhere. We need to talk openly and need to put our prejudice aside. We need to learn and understand first.

chrisweekly 6y ago

"Nothing's ever enough for vegans." I stopped reading right there. - non-vegan with low tolerance for counterproductive comments

kaycebasques 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. No need for a blanket prejudiced statement like this.

slothtrop 6y ago
I'll rescind it the day I see a vegan suggest there is such a thing as ethical meat/egg consumption. It will never happen.
- kaycebasques 6y ago
  I don't have a problem with someone who raises a chicken, uses the chicken's natural existence to improve the local environment (fertilizer, etc.), lets that chicken have a life similar to its life in nature, and gives it a lifespan that isn't dramatically shorter than what it experiences in nature. Eating that chicken and its eggs seems fine to me because that seems like a mutualistic relationship. Asking me to endorse factory farming is tough because it provides literally none of those things, all of which seem like pretty reasonable definitions of a decent life for a creature. If you can verify that the chicken/eggs you bought came from that situation, I don't have a problem with that. I know a lot of brands claim an image like this, but let's be honest, no one is verifying that before purchasing because we know it's probably not true. In other words, I am a vegan, and I just suggested a situation of ethical meat/egg consumption. As I said before, I think you're prejudiced towards vegans and don't really understand what we're about. I suggest listening more to what vegans have to say about veganism rather than what meateaters have to say about it.
  - slothtrop 6y ago
    > I suggest listening more to what vegans have to say about veganism rather than what meateaters have to say about it. That is precisely what brought me to my conclusion. > As I said before, I think you're prejudiced towards vegans and don't really understand what we're about. To the extent that I see the vocal base as having an absolutist view compared to yours, yes. If you're insinuating more connotations associated with your choice of words prejudice, no. You don't know me. That view is not terribly dissimilar from my own, so I'll grant I understand it well. Congrats on defying my expectations. I was confident you would not.

WhyNotHugo 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Getting human slaves out of the food production process is a great first step, but I like to think that we'll eventually spot inflicting pain on _any_ animal to produce our food.

cute_boi 6y ago

> "You're free to consume whatever you want." Most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. You're not free to consume whatever you want. It may be legal but not ethical.

slothtrop 6y ago
You're taking this to mean far more than it obviously is meant to mean.

bitwize 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Causing zero harm to animals is enough. It's totally within reach, too. You just have to take responsibility and DO IT.

standardUser 6y ago
If you go by the actual definition of what defines an animal, it is literally impossible not to constantly harm animals. Either the rabbits caught in the threshers, the tiny organism we step on, the mites on our face we consume unknowingly. Even the strictest Jainist can't stop from annihilating an uncountable number of tiny animals that live in, on and around us. (though to their credit, they sure do try).
slothtrop 6y ago
Thanks for proving my point :)
LunaSea 6y ago
Sent from by device built my slave labour in China.

dariusj18 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Just to jump in with an additional point, vegans would never be ok with this. I believe you might be thinking vegetarians, which as a vegetarian, this is good news, and is enough for me.

toiletfuneral 6y ago

fuck off

mamon 6y ago

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. The most funny argument used by vegans is: "we are closer to nature". There's nothing more natural than animals eating each other. And no, humans are not herbivores. Some primates might be, but human evolution started the moment our monkey ancestors decided to get off the tree and eat meat. By promoting veganism you're trying to undo the last 3-5 millions of years of human evolution. Talk about Catholic Church pushing us back to Middle ages... /s Another argument that I hate: by not eating animals you reduce suffering. If we take that to it's logical conclusion, the only way for you to not cause any sufferning is to die. That's why Buddhists (for whom "reducing suffering" is a religious imperative) came up with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu Life is an infininte circle of joy, pleasure, sadness, suffering, death... If you try to eliminate one of them you are against the life itself.