4 ms·

> That seems incredibly naive. I can’t think of a single program off the top of my head that doesn’t use the Internet to some extent while running. It is not.

by krzyk 6y ago

> That seems incredibly naive. I can’t think of a single program off the top of my head that doesn’t use the Internet to some extent while running. It is not. Imagine that I don't have that great wifi coverage in all places around the house. But I take my laptop there. You know what happens when you have poor wifi connection and you wake up laptop? Even the keyboard+mouse are unresponsive. I was wondering why on earth my keyboard stoppe working on a brand new laptop. All suddenly started to work when I moved to a different room. I don't have issues with notarization if and only if it does behave normally when the internet connection is spotty - it is a laptop for gods sake, not a desktop with ethernet.

jrochkind1 6y ago
The MacOS OCSP feature has been documented to be non-functional when there is no internet connection, it does not interrupt or slow down any functioning in that case.
- cdubzzz 6y ago
  Slow Internet and no Internet are different things though. I have experienced this issue as well — sometimes after boot my regular apps will just bounce and bounce (in the macOS dock) and never start. Then when I plug in to ethernet and shut off my wifi everything all of a sudden fires up and starts working.
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    If there isn't a reasonable timeout set, that does sound like a bug. More than 2 seconds sounds pretty unreasonable to me (possibly should be even less), for a service that is willing to no-op give up when there is no network. Someone would have to do some reverse engineering/debugging maybe by observing/manipulating network traffic to be sure what is going on there, unless Apple wants to tell us but I suspect the suspicious wouldn't believe them. Missing or too-high timeout should be fixed, but I don't think that'd be enough to to satisfy critics in this thread? Would it you? [Not setting a timeout on a network request is a common bug in, say, web development. It does make me lose some confidence in Apple's technical abilities if they make that bug in a place with such high consequences. But that's different than ill-intent or a privacy violation] People seem to object to the basic idea of OCSP, which I think means objecting to the basic idea of app signing. App signing seems reasonable to me (although it is important to me there be a way for users to choose to launch un-signed apps; there still is in MacOS). And OCSP seems important part of a app signing implementation. Improvements to the particular OCSP implementation for both privacy and performance may be advisable though.
    - krzyk 6y ago
      > Missing or too-high timeout should be fixed, but I don't think that'd be enough to to satisfy critics in this thread? Would it you? A fix in /etc/hosts is all I needed, but if there was a timeout of 2 seconds I wouldn't even notice the problem -> so I wouldn't block notarization.
    - MiddleEndian 6y ago
      >People seem to object to the basic idea of OCSP, which I think means objecting to the basic idea of app signing. I am. It's one of the reasons I ditched OS X when 10.7 came out despite using Mac OS since 7.6. It's nobody else's business what I run on my machine.
- krzyk 6y ago
  Just like the sibling poster replied, it is not the issue of "no Internet". You have three cases here: 1. Working internet connection 2. Slow internet connection 3. No internet connection Everything works fine in 1 and 3, but breaks the OS when in 2 (and it is very common, just walk further from your router and you'll notice it - e.g. when waking up the mac from sleep). What is strange to me is that I had an old Macbook Air with latest pre-BigSur macos, bought a new Macbook Air (early 2020) with the same OS and I saw the problem only on it - at first I thought it was broken.
  - jrochkind1 6y ago
    That does sound like a bug, and if that's what's going on it makes me question Apple's technical excellence if they forget to put a reasonable timeout on a network call in such a high-impact place. This bug is not really about privacy though.
cdubzzz 6y ago
I absolutely agree with that. And I have experienced a similar issue with my laptop from time to time. It is pretty dumb and seems like poor implementation. I don’t think that is relevant to OPs argument though.

by krzyk 6y ago

jrochkind1 6y ago

The MacOS OCSP feature has been documented to be non-functional when there is no internet connection, it does not interrupt or slow down any functioning in that case.

cdubzzz 6y ago
Slow Internet and no Internet are different things though. I have experienced this issue as well — sometimes after boot my regular apps will just bounce and bounce (in the macOS dock) and never start. Then when I plug in to ethernet and shut off my wifi everything all of a sudden fires up and starts working.
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  If there isn't a reasonable timeout set, that does sound like a bug. More than 2 seconds sounds pretty unreasonable to me (possibly should be even less), for a service that is willing to no-op give up when there is no network. Someone would have to do some reverse engineering/debugging maybe by observing/manipulating network traffic to be sure what is going on there, unless Apple wants to tell us but I suspect the suspicious wouldn't believe them. Missing or too-high timeout should be fixed, but I don't think that'd be enough to to satisfy critics in this thread? Would it you? [Not setting a timeout on a network request is a common bug in, say, web development. It does make me lose some confidence in Apple's technical abilities if they make that bug in a place with such high consequences. But that's different than ill-intent or a privacy violation] People seem to object to the basic idea of OCSP, which I think means objecting to the basic idea of app signing. App signing seems reasonable to me (although it is important to me there be a way for users to choose to launch un-signed apps; there still is in MacOS). And OCSP seems important part of a app signing implementation. Improvements to the particular OCSP implementation for both privacy and performance may be advisable though.
  - krzyk 6y ago
    > Missing or too-high timeout should be fixed, but I don't think that'd be enough to to satisfy critics in this thread? Would it you? A fix in /etc/hosts is all I needed, but if there was a timeout of 2 seconds I wouldn't even notice the problem -> so I wouldn't block notarization.
  - MiddleEndian 6y ago
    >People seem to object to the basic idea of OCSP, which I think means objecting to the basic idea of app signing. I am. It's one of the reasons I ditched OS X when 10.7 came out despite using Mac OS since 7.6. It's nobody else's business what I run on my machine.
krzyk 6y ago
Just like the sibling poster replied, it is not the issue of "no Internet". You have three cases here: 1. Working internet connection 2. Slow internet connection 3. No internet connection Everything works fine in 1 and 3, but breaks the OS when in 2 (and it is very common, just walk further from your router and you'll notice it - e.g. when waking up the mac from sleep). What is strange to me is that I had an old Macbook Air with latest pre-BigSur macos, bought a new Macbook Air (early 2020) with the same OS and I saw the problem only on it - at first I thought it was broken.
- jrochkind1 6y ago
  That does sound like a bug, and if that's what's going on it makes me question Apple's technical excellence if they forget to put a reasonable timeout on a network call in such a high-impact place. This bug is not really about privacy though.

cdubzzz 6y ago

I absolutely agree with that. And I have experienced a similar issue with my laptop from time to time. It is pretty dumb and seems like poor implementation. I don’t think that is relevant to OPs argument though.