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> Again, not to say subsidies are wrong per se, but I don't follow your reasoning there. The reasoning is that it is so much cheaper to produce food in some lo

> Again, not to say subsidies are wrong per se, but I don't follow your reasoning there. The reasoning is that it is so much cheaper to produce food in some low income countries (less/no regulations, lower wages) that the Western world would never be able to compete with it without subsidies. I'm not an expert on farming at all, but as far as I know at least in the EU, all farmers are dependent in some way or another on subsidies. In other words: it wouldn't make financial sense to farm in the EU without subsidies. I'm assuming it's the same in the US, but I might be completely wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong. Hence my conclusion: if farming wasn't subsidized in the Western world, it wouldn't exist in the Western world and it would all move to low income countries that aren't as regulated and have cheaper production. Just like the production of the vast majority of the rest of our goods I guess? > Most Western countries (with the possible exception of the US, I don't know) aren't agriculturally self-sufficient, nor it is a goal for them to be. ?? This looks pretty self-sufficient to me? http://capreform.eu/trends-in-eu-agricultural-self-sufficiency/ http://capreform.eu/trends-in-eu-agricultural-self-sufficien... Or at least enough production to survive a war or other crisis. Being from The Netherlands I know that we export a ton of food (a tiny country that is the second biggest exporter in the world behind the US). We also heavily subsidize food production. If self-sufficiency of food production (in case of crisis) wasn't a goal of the Western world then I have no idea why we would have any internal production at all? Why would you subsidize food production within a geographical region for any other reason than food security? > In case a war broke out, energy supplies would be a much more pressing concern, especially for Western Europe. Ah? I would think that both (food security and energy security) are dependent on each other, equally essential and pressing? I mean: you can't have one without the other in times of crisis. It's a bit off-topic, but I can't think of many policies that are geopolitically dumber and more dangerous than European energy policies (with perhaps France being the only exception). Example: Germany is in the process of making itself voluntarily completely dependent on Russian gas for the vast majority of it's average energy consumption ( > 60 %) and for more than 90 % of it's base load production (when there's little wind and sun).

kwhitefoot 6y ago
> Why would you subsidize food production within a geographical region for any other reason than food security? Here in Norway food security is only one of the reasons, at least it seems that way. Another very important one is that a farm requires workers, machinery, and material. The workers need doctors and their children need schools, the machinery needs mechanics, the material (fuel, fertiliser, cement, wood, etc.) needs transport. So by subsidizing a farm thousand metres up a mountain we generate enough business to keep a small community alive and prospering where otherwise there would be no one. This in turn means that there will be people nearby who will see an opportunity for other businesses such as tourism. This means that on the 700 km journey through the mountains from Oslo to Trondheim you are rarely more than a few tens of km from the nearest petrol station, fast food outlet, hotel, and that it is rare to drive more than a few km without seeing a house or cabin. Without farming in the valleys there would be no secure employment in these areas because the only other income is from tourism which is very seasonal and also easily disrupted by events such as COVID or any downturn in the economy.
fotdutah 6y ago
While I agree with you that the EU is roughly self-sufficient, food security is not the only goal of EU farming subsidies. France has strongly supported these subsidies, which replaced domestic French subsidies, because of the effect on rural life and the rural economy. Subsidies are the reason that millions of small farmers can make a living, the reason that many French villages still exist, one of the reasons for that high quality local produce made in small batches is available cheaply all over France, and one of the reasons that retirees from the UK and Netherlands like to live in rural France (the much more intensive farming in those countries makes rural life quite different).

kwhitefoot 6y ago

> Why would you subsidize food production within a geographical region for any other reason than food security? Here in Norway food security is only one of the reasons, at least it seems that way. Another very important one is that a farm requires workers, machinery, and material. The workers need doctors and their children need schools, the machinery needs mechanics, the material (fuel, fertiliser, cement, wood, etc.) needs transport. So by subsidizing a farm thousand metres up a mountain we generate enough business to keep a small community alive and prospering where otherwise there would be no one. This in turn means that there will be people nearby who will see an opportunity for other businesses such as tourism. This means that on the 700 km journey through the mountains from Oslo to Trondheim you are rarely more than a few tens of km from the nearest petrol station, fast food outlet, hotel, and that it is rare to drive more than a few km without seeing a house or cabin. Without farming in the valleys there would be no secure employment in these areas because the only other income is from tourism which is very seasonal and also easily disrupted by events such as COVID or any downturn in the economy.

fotdutah 6y ago

While I agree with you that the EU is roughly self-sufficient, food security is not the only goal of EU farming subsidies. France has strongly supported these subsidies, which replaced domestic French subsidies, because of the effect on rural life and the rural economy. Subsidies are the reason that millions of small farmers can make a living, the reason that many French villages still exist, one of the reasons for that high quality local produce made in small batches is available cheaply all over France, and one of the reasons that retirees from the UK and Netherlands like to live in rural France (the much more intensive farming in those countries makes rural life quite different).