19 ms·

How the U.S. Used Disinformation and the 'Jakarta Method' to Change the World

182 points by AndrewBissell 6y ago

ngcc_hk 6y ago
Good story but today the problem a china. Not USA any more. They did internal first now spread out. Wake up. Humanity enemy is not USA. (Not to say USA has not supported very strange fellow now and in the past and likely in the future. Just not the main conflicts.)
- versale 6y ago
  I presume this comment was a demonstration of the Jakarta method.
- ChrisRR 6y ago
  If you believe this, then I hate to tell you, but you've fallen victim to the propaganda yourself. Just because China is bad, doesn't mean the US isn't. Just look at how willingly the US public voted in Trump who is demonstrably a horrible, spiteful, selfish person, a compulsive liar who constantly contradicts himself, and he's not even a good businessman, he's an even worse christian for all those who care about that. And yet there's a neverending propaganda machine convincing people that he's the kind of person that should be running a country.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    To a minority but highly influential group of Christians, it doesn't matter that Trump is all these things. He's still the Anointed who does Gods work, perhaps without knowing it himself. You just can't win with arguments. (They even draw parallels to David.)
  - Veen 6y ago
    > Just because China is bad, doesn't mean the US isn't. This is true, but I more often see the opposite implied: Because the US is bad, Russia, China, and Iran shouldn’t be criticised. It’s often goes: A: “China did a bad thing.” B: “Yeah well, America did a bad thing too, you propaganda-addled fool.” A: “Yes, but all these people in China...” B: “Hypocrite! Dupe! Racist!”
  - d0100 6y ago
    China: Get disappeared, racist reeducation or mowed over like shit pancakes Both sides are the same!
    - ChrisRR 6y ago
      I did not in any way say they're the same. But you can't act like the US is some utopia just because they're not the bottom of the barrel
- vvwvvwvvw 6y ago
  The west is the reason why your country (which i presume is Hong Kong from your username) is in the state it is in now today. It is amazing how brainwashed a population can become and be so blind to facts.
  - scoot_718 6y ago
    What the fuck is with all these ^ sino bots on Hacker news?
howlgarnish 6y ago
A better read about what happened in Jakarta on 30 September 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_September_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_September_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19... It remains quite unclear what exactly triggered the events, but Suharto at the very least exploited the hell out of them.
- raihansaputra 6y ago
  Unclear is an understatement. The Suharto-government produced "G30S/PKI" is still broadcasted every September 30th to sustain the propaganda/story that justified the mass killings. What recently (a few years ago) came up was the US had a diplomatic wire that had a list of the dated a few days/weeks before the incident. It is suspected that this list was initial "hit-list". "The US Embassy supplied the army with a list of thousands of PKI cadres for targeting." http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/all-stories/indonesia-30-september-1965-mystery-continues http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/all-stories/indone... For a modern documentary that's definitely very chilling about the "killers" of those mass killings, check out The Act of Killing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing
  - spacechild1 6y ago
    “The act of killing“ is a truely impressive and disturbing movie!
fluxdiode 6y ago
What's the difference between disinformation and lying?
redis_mlc 6y ago
The article is badly written and edited, and whatever facts presented are either cherry-picked or irrelevant. - Japan, who were occupying Indonesia, as they realized that WW2 was lost, met with Sukarno and Hatta and offered Indonesian independence - then the Dutch, colonizers for 350 years, attempted to re-take Indonesia - the US told the Dutch to get lost after almost 400 years, and Indonesia was able to proclaim independence. So first off, the US is primarily to thank for Indonesia's early post-WW2 self-determination. - after WW2, communism was being promoted by both Russia and China world-wide. The US encouraged the Indonesian leaders to avoid that. Part of the problem was ethnic politics and loyalty - Chinese businessmen control finance in SE Asia, and the native Indonesian leaders decided to do something about that under the guise of "communism bad" - the US until today is the primary military supporter of Indonesia, training virtually all of their air force pilots. The C-130 and F-16 are their main aircraft. So when people criticize US involvement in Indonesia, I remind them that the US is their biggest friend, from 1945 until today. In return, the US has never colonized that country in any way. For those who haven't visited Indonesia, the country made huge economic strides from 2000 to 2019, and if not for corona, would be doing very well economically. Central Jakarta, the capital, is very nice. Regarding the South American anti-communist actions, that is what it took to prevent it taking root. You can see what the alternative is in Venezuela, a former oil exporter, essentially a destroyed country because of it. Or closer to home, the burning of our downtowns by Marxists.
- 74B5 6y ago
  >whatever facts presented are either cherry-picked or irrelevant. >Look what japan did. >Look what the dutch did. >Look, the US was altruistic enough to give them indipendence. >Look, the US even trains their military. You responeded with a bunch of whatabout and called the US an ally. Would you call the US an ally of south america too? (And ignore all the horrible hegemonic involvement.) Why do you only cherry-pick Venezuela as an example and not Cuba, where mixed races living peacefully, side by side? How does rioting promote marxism or socialism? (>Look at all this right-wing brainfuck.)
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  Since we are in the realm of fairy dust, I'd like to point out the two bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as retaliation for Pearl Habour. 1. We may say what we like, killing and injuring severely 150K people in indiscriminate nuclear bombing is a war crime. They knew it was. Otherwise they would have bombed Tokyo. Im aware that The targets were were active military bases, but civilians lived there. better yet, they could have bombed Germany too but thats another story. 2. You misunderstand the subtlety of modern conquest. Much of SE Asia, JPN, SKOR are countries under pretty much protectorates of US government and it's lauaghable to call them sovereign nations. They are in name only. > Regarding the South American anti-communist actions, that is what it took to prevent it taking root. This is a can of worms I'm sure the US Gov makes sure is fuzzy as hell. No idea why an economic system of another country is of such personal significance to US citizens that they will readily send their sons to die for it. I'm willing to bet a hairy unicorn that a majority of people in the US have no idea why their country spends so much energy fighting and starting wars in the last few decades other than some basic platitude of "Terrorism" and "communism". Ever heard of the Panama Canal? The term "Banana republic"? Read a book by the author John Hopkins, an American author. > You can see what the alternative is in Venezuela. Perhaps Maduro's mustache rubs Washington the wrong way. They've spent a lot of money and lives fighting mustached enemies the last few decades. He looks like a dictator who abuses his people to no end. A flash replica of Saddam giving the older politicians nightmares. I can only postulate. The real reason Venezuela is failing is because it does not have money (Resource curse schurse.). UAE and Venezuela differ only in one aspect. UAE isn't a bastion of Democracy but is filthy rich. The difference is sanctions. And who do you suppose imposes those sanctions at the UN NA? Why? Why do they care? Has Caracas ever declared war on Washington? Does the American taxpayer even know where Caracas is? So many questions. So many simple answers. Not easy answers but simple.
mssundaram 6y ago
What surprises me is that when these propaganda programs become more well known, people are still hesitant to believe that in some form they are still happening, we just only might find out in another 30 years. This article even mentions pressuring the New York Times, a newspaper most people would say is very authoritative and trustworthy (whether it is or not). What is being published now that was coerced?
- toyg 6y ago
  They don't even need to coerce anything, these days. The likes of Judith Miller will gladly sell themselves for the promise of favours from the elite.
  - bamboozled 6y ago
    I see the word "elite" used a lot in 2020 to define a certain type of person, what defines an "elite"?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - toyg 6y ago
      I can't answer for others, but I personally use it like Pareto did [0], i.e. the class currently owning or controlling the bulk of resources and wealth in a given population. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilfredo_Pareto#Fascism_and_power_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilfredo_Pareto#Fascism_and_po...
      - lucian1900 6y ago
        "Ruling class" is a better term. Currently that class is the bourgeoisie (owners of capital).
        Amezarak 6y ago
        Considering only the ownership of capital is too restrictive. Control of capital (and therefore power) has shifted from its owners to a managerial elite over the past century.
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
Certainly not on the same scale but Suharto tactics continued well past 1965. In _1991_, Suharto's troops commanded an attack on peaceful demonstrators who were protesting the killing of a man, Sebastiao Gomes, at point blank range inside a church. Some of these demonstrators ran away into a cemetery and where trapped taking cover from bullets behind gravestones. At least 250 People were confirmed dead in this massacre at Santa Cruz cemetery. [0] Literally exterminated like sitting ducks. If it wasn't for the massacre footage from people like Max Stahl and other journalists it is likely that by now most of Timór Lorosa'e would have been slowly replaced out of existence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_massacre
camillomiller 6y ago
Let’s all keep this in mind, please, when we read poignant columns about the incredible danger posed by TikTok or other Chinese apps and services to “National Security”.
- woahAcademia 6y ago
  I'm a globalist but I'll give some reasons to treat China different. When you buy or use a computer product from China, you also gave a medical company in China money. When businesses are majority owned by the CCP, you are buying from a mega corporation. I am reluctant to give FAANG my business due to their size, I am just as concerned with a company in China. Now the US government I rarely interface with outside taxes. I get spam mail from the USPS. I can't think of any other government I work with.
  - modo_mario 6y ago
    Chances are you interacted with companies where singapore's GIC or Temasek has shares. If not them perhaps something by the norwegian wealth fund. I think the combined funds of singapore are about similar to to the China Investment Corporation and norway outstrips both but also has a bit more domestic focus.
jerome-jh 6y ago
During the second half of the XXth century, the US did more bad than good. Again recently the intervention of the CIA in Yemen is unjustifiable. There is a tragic irony into thinking a libertarian country so violently interfered with others people affairs, and with so many of them on all continents. Most of the time favoring the establishment of a dictatorship. It is also funny to think that Trump, to my knowledge, did not engage in undercover or open military operations, whereas Obama, who passed for a dove certainly was not one. Anyway this is an era coming to an end. Let see what China will do with its superpowers when it is the 1st world economy. For sure it is already quite rough with its neighbors. Will its thirst for commerce refrain it to bomb other countries? Will it be technological bombs instead?
- tokai 6y ago
  >did not engage in undercover or open military operations He had an Iranian general assassinated.
  - scoot_718 6y ago
    Who? Russia's pick for US President?
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >It is also funny to think that Trump, to my knowledge, did not engage in undercover or open military operations, whereas Obama, who passed for a dove certainly was not one. Though he has yet to start a new war, he had drastically increased bombing and drone strikes leading to far more civilian deaths than Obama.
  - somesortofsystm 6y ago
    >Though he has yet to start a new war, he had drastically increased bombing and drone strikes leading to far more civilian deaths than Obama. Got some source data that backs up this claim?
    - 6y ago
markdown 6y ago
This happened just 3 years after the US handed West Papua over to Indonesia on a silver platter. Today, in 2020, the genocide of the West Papuan people continues. https://international.ucla.edu/institute/event/1786 https://international.ucla.edu/institute/event/1786 https://twitter.com/FreeWestPapua https://twitter.com/FreeWestPapua https://twitter.com/VeronicaKoman https://twitter.com/VeronicaKoman
igravious 6y ago
to: @redis_mlc – not sure if you realise, but all your comments are marked [dead]
- yorwba 6y ago
  That's what happens when someone's account gets banned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25011268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25011268
nnx 6y ago
An amazing documentary on the subject is “The Act of Killing” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing) which challenges former death-squad leaders to reenact their mass killings (of supposed communists...)
barney54 6y ago
Here’s another interesting article about this: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-jakarta-method-how-the-u-s-used-mass-murder-to-beat-communism/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-jakarta...
motohagiography 6y ago
Stepping back, purges are a bleak aspect of statecraft - and executive management. As a leader, what do you reasonably do about an insurgent movement? Once they seize power, they will need to purge you and your supporters, so there is a zero-sum aspect to this. Develop mature democratic processes? Those will take decades, and imposing them just means Potemkin structures that keep you in power.
- profunctor 6y ago
  This doesn't just describe a purge where maybe the leaders of the Communist party are imprisoned by a military dictatorship. This is mass murder of millions. It is never necessary. Do what the king of France did and just abdicate and leave if you have lost power rather than engage in mass murder. Sure if there is a militia planning to attempt to overthrow you then have them arrested but don't kill everyone with views to the left/right.
- modo_mario 6y ago
  There's a bit of a stark difference between killing a few generals or public figureheads looking to overthrow one as a dictator, and killing many hundreds of thousands of civilians that don't like you. It's just extra gross that the US helped it happen.
known 6y ago
"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the USA; They don't care" --Nelson Mandela https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11700110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11700110

182 points by AndrewBissell 6y ago

Good story but today the problem a china. Not USA any more. They did internal first now spread out. Wake up. Humanity enemy is not USA. (Not to say USA has not supported very strange fellow now and in the past and likely in the future. Just not the main conflicts.)

versale 6y ago
I presume this comment was a demonstration of the Jakarta method.
ChrisRR 6y ago
If you believe this, then I hate to tell you, but you've fallen victim to the propaganda yourself. Just because China is bad, doesn't mean the US isn't. Just look at how willingly the US public voted in Trump who is demonstrably a horrible, spiteful, selfish person, a compulsive liar who constantly contradicts himself, and he's not even a good businessman, he's an even worse christian for all those who care about that. And yet there's a neverending propaganda machine convincing people that he's the kind of person that should be running a country.
- jacobush 6y ago
  To a minority but highly influential group of Christians, it doesn't matter that Trump is all these things. He's still the Anointed who does Gods work, perhaps without knowing it himself. You just can't win with arguments. (They even draw parallels to David.)
- Veen 6y ago
  > Just because China is bad, doesn't mean the US isn't. This is true, but I more often see the opposite implied: Because the US is bad, Russia, China, and Iran shouldn’t be criticised. It’s often goes: A: “China did a bad thing.” B: “Yeah well, America did a bad thing too, you propaganda-addled fool.” A: “Yes, but all these people in China...” B: “Hypocrite! Dupe! Racist!”
- d0100 6y ago
  China: Get disappeared, racist reeducation or mowed over like shit pancakes Both sides are the same!
  - ChrisRR 6y ago
    I did not in any way say they're the same. But you can't act like the US is some utopia just because they're not the bottom of the barrel
vvwvvwvvw 6y ago
The west is the reason why your country (which i presume is Hong Kong from your username) is in the state it is in now today. It is amazing how brainwashed a population can become and be so blind to facts.
- scoot_718 6y ago
  What the fuck is with all these ^ sino bots on Hacker news?

howlgarnish 6y ago

A better read about what happened in Jakarta on 30 September 1965: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_September_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_September_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19... It remains quite unclear what exactly triggered the events, but Suharto at the very least exploited the hell out of them.

raihansaputra 6y ago
Unclear is an understatement. The Suharto-government produced "G30S/PKI" is still broadcasted every September 30th to sustain the propaganda/story that justified the mass killings. What recently (a few years ago) came up was the US had a diplomatic wire that had a list of the dated a few days/weeks before the incident. It is suspected that this list was initial "hit-list". "The US Embassy supplied the army with a list of thousands of PKI cadres for targeting." http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/all-stories/indonesia-30-september-1965-mystery-continues http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/all-stories/indone... For a modern documentary that's definitely very chilling about the "killers" of those mass killings, check out The Act of Killing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing
- spacechild1 6y ago
  “The act of killing“ is a truely impressive and disturbing movie!

fluxdiode 6y ago

What's the difference between disinformation and lying?

redis_mlc 6y ago

The article is badly written and edited, and whatever facts presented are either cherry-picked or irrelevant. - Japan, who were occupying Indonesia, as they realized that WW2 was lost, met with Sukarno and Hatta and offered Indonesian independence - then the Dutch, colonizers for 350 years, attempted to re-take Indonesia - the US told the Dutch to get lost after almost 400 years, and Indonesia was able to proclaim independence. So first off, the US is primarily to thank for Indonesia's early post-WW2 self-determination. - after WW2, communism was being promoted by both Russia and China world-wide. The US encouraged the Indonesian leaders to avoid that. Part of the problem was ethnic politics and loyalty - Chinese businessmen control finance in SE Asia, and the native Indonesian leaders decided to do something about that under the guise of "communism bad" - the US until today is the primary military supporter of Indonesia, training virtually all of their air force pilots. The C-130 and F-16 are their main aircraft. So when people criticize US involvement in Indonesia, I remind them that the US is their biggest friend, from 1945 until today. In return, the US has never colonized that country in any way. For those who haven't visited Indonesia, the country made huge economic strides from 2000 to 2019, and if not for corona, would be doing very well economically. Central Jakarta, the capital, is very nice. Regarding the South American anti-communist actions, that is what it took to prevent it taking root. You can see what the alternative is in Venezuela, a former oil exporter, essentially a destroyed country because of it. Or closer to home, the burning of our downtowns by Marxists.

74B5 6y ago
>whatever facts presented are either cherry-picked or irrelevant. >Look what japan did. >Look what the dutch did. >Look, the US was altruistic enough to give them indipendence. >Look, the US even trains their military. You responeded with a bunch of whatabout and called the US an ally. Would you call the US an ally of south america too? (And ignore all the horrible hegemonic involvement.) Why do you only cherry-pick Venezuela as an example and not Cuba, where mixed races living peacefully, side by side? How does rioting promote marxism or socialism? (>Look at all this right-wing brainfuck.)
vagrantJin 6y ago
Since we are in the realm of fairy dust, I'd like to point out the two bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki as retaliation for Pearl Habour. 1. We may say what we like, killing and injuring severely 150K people in indiscriminate nuclear bombing is a war crime. They knew it was. Otherwise they would have bombed Tokyo. Im aware that The targets were were active military bases, but civilians lived there. better yet, they could have bombed Germany too but thats another story. 2. You misunderstand the subtlety of modern conquest. Much of SE Asia, JPN, SKOR are countries under pretty much protectorates of US government and it's lauaghable to call them sovereign nations. They are in name only. > Regarding the South American anti-communist actions, that is what it took to prevent it taking root. This is a can of worms I'm sure the US Gov makes sure is fuzzy as hell. No idea why an economic system of another country is of such personal significance to US citizens that they will readily send their sons to die for it. I'm willing to bet a hairy unicorn that a majority of people in the US have no idea why their country spends so much energy fighting and starting wars in the last few decades other than some basic platitude of "Terrorism" and "communism". Ever heard of the Panama Canal? The term "Banana republic"? Read a book by the author John Hopkins, an American author. > You can see what the alternative is in Venezuela. Perhaps Maduro's mustache rubs Washington the wrong way. They've spent a lot of money and lives fighting mustached enemies the last few decades. He looks like a dictator who abuses his people to no end. A flash replica of Saddam giving the older politicians nightmares. I can only postulate. The real reason Venezuela is failing is because it does not have money (Resource curse schurse.). UAE and Venezuela differ only in one aspect. UAE isn't a bastion of Democracy but is filthy rich. The difference is sanctions. And who do you suppose imposes those sanctions at the UN NA? Why? Why do they care? Has Caracas ever declared war on Washington? Does the American taxpayer even know where Caracas is? So many questions. So many simple answers. Not easy answers but simple.

mssundaram 6y ago

What surprises me is that when these propaganda programs become more well known, people are still hesitant to believe that in some form they are still happening, we just only might find out in another 30 years. This article even mentions pressuring the New York Times, a newspaper most people would say is very authoritative and trustworthy (whether it is or not). What is being published now that was coerced?

toyg 6y ago
They don't even need to coerce anything, these days. The likes of Judith Miller will gladly sell themselves for the promise of favours from the elite.
- bamboozled 6y ago
  I see the word "elite" used a lot in 2020 to define a certain type of person, what defines an "elite"?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - toyg 6y ago
    I can't answer for others, but I personally use it like Pareto did [0], i.e. the class currently owning or controlling the bulk of resources and wealth in a given population. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilfredo_Pareto#Fascism_and_power_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilfredo_Pareto#Fascism_and_po...
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      "Ruling class" is a better term. Currently that class is the bourgeoisie (owners of capital).
      - Amezarak 6y ago
        Considering only the ownership of capital is too restrictive. Control of capital (and therefore power) has shifted from its owners to a managerial elite over the past century.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago

Certainly not on the same scale but Suharto tactics continued well past 1965. In _1991_, Suharto's troops commanded an attack on peaceful demonstrators who were protesting the killing of a man, Sebastiao Gomes, at point blank range inside a church. Some of these demonstrators ran away into a cemetery and where trapped taking cover from bullets behind gravestones. At least 250 People were confirmed dead in this massacre at Santa Cruz cemetery. [0] Literally exterminated like sitting ducks. If it wasn't for the massacre footage from people like Max Stahl and other journalists it is likely that by now most of Timór Lorosa'e would have been slowly replaced out of existence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Cruz_massacre

camillomiller 6y ago

Let’s all keep this in mind, please, when we read poignant columns about the incredible danger posed by TikTok or other Chinese apps and services to “National Security”.

woahAcademia 6y ago
I'm a globalist but I'll give some reasons to treat China different. When you buy or use a computer product from China, you also gave a medical company in China money. When businesses are majority owned by the CCP, you are buying from a mega corporation. I am reluctant to give FAANG my business due to their size, I am just as concerned with a company in China. Now the US government I rarely interface with outside taxes. I get spam mail from the USPS. I can't think of any other government I work with.
- modo_mario 6y ago
  Chances are you interacted with companies where singapore's GIC or Temasek has shares. If not them perhaps something by the norwegian wealth fund. I think the combined funds of singapore are about similar to to the China Investment Corporation and norway outstrips both but also has a bit more domestic focus.

jerome-jh 6y ago

During the second half of the XXth century, the US did more bad than good. Again recently the intervention of the CIA in Yemen is unjustifiable. There is a tragic irony into thinking a libertarian country so violently interfered with others people affairs, and with so many of them on all continents. Most of the time favoring the establishment of a dictatorship. It is also funny to think that Trump, to my knowledge, did not engage in undercover or open military operations, whereas Obama, who passed for a dove certainly was not one. Anyway this is an era coming to an end. Let see what China will do with its superpowers when it is the 1st world economy. For sure it is already quite rough with its neighbors. Will its thirst for commerce refrain it to bomb other countries? Will it be technological bombs instead?

tokai 6y ago
>did not engage in undercover or open military operations He had an Iranian general assassinated.
- scoot_718 6y ago
  Who? Russia's pick for US President?
boomboomsubban 6y ago
>It is also funny to think that Trump, to my knowledge, did not engage in undercover or open military operations, whereas Obama, who passed for a dove certainly was not one. Though he has yet to start a new war, he had drastically increased bombing and drone strikes leading to far more civilian deaths than Obama.
- somesortofsystm 6y ago
  >Though he has yet to start a new war, he had drastically increased bombing and drone strikes leading to far more civilian deaths than Obama. Got some source data that backs up this claim?
  - 6y ago

markdown 6y ago

This happened just 3 years after the US handed West Papua over to Indonesia on a silver platter. Today, in 2020, the genocide of the West Papuan people continues. https://international.ucla.edu/institute/event/1786 https://international.ucla.edu/institute/event/1786 https://twitter.com/FreeWestPapua https://twitter.com/FreeWestPapua https://twitter.com/VeronicaKoman https://twitter.com/VeronicaKoman

igravious 6y ago

to: @redis_mlc – not sure if you realise, but all your comments are marked [dead]

yorwba 6y ago
That's what happens when someone's account gets banned: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25011268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25011268

nnx 6y ago

An amazing documentary on the subject is “The Act of Killing” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Killing) which challenges former death-squad leaders to reenact their mass killings (of supposed communists...)

barney54 6y ago

Here’s another interesting article about this: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-jakarta-method-how-the-u-s-used-mass-murder-to-beat-communism/ https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-jakarta...

motohagiography 6y ago

Stepping back, purges are a bleak aspect of statecraft - and executive management. As a leader, what do you reasonably do about an insurgent movement? Once they seize power, they will need to purge you and your supporters, so there is a zero-sum aspect to this. Develop mature democratic processes? Those will take decades, and imposing them just means Potemkin structures that keep you in power.

profunctor 6y ago
This doesn't just describe a purge where maybe the leaders of the Communist party are imprisoned by a military dictatorship. This is mass murder of millions. It is never necessary. Do what the king of France did and just abdicate and leave if you have lost power rather than engage in mass murder. Sure if there is a militia planning to attempt to overthrow you then have them arrested but don't kill everyone with views to the left/right.
modo_mario 6y ago
There's a bit of a stark difference between killing a few generals or public figureheads looking to overthrow one as a dictator, and killing many hundreds of thousands of civilians that don't like you. It's just extra gross that the US helped it happen.

known 6y ago

"If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the USA; They don't care" --Nelson Mandela https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11700110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11700110