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I tried that strategy for a little bit. I also tried the strategy where I prioritized hitting all the metrics (which usually takes very little work relative to

I tried that strategy for a little bit. I also tried the strategy where I prioritized hitting all the metrics (which usually takes very little work relative to your job) and then did my job. The second strategy led to better reviews, faster promotions, being more well liked by my boss, and an overall more pleasant work experience. I recommend the second strategy.

prewett 6y ago
There's a third strategy for the no-BS, independent types: opt out. Contracting/consulting avoids a lot of that. You're not a worker bee that the company "owns/rents", you are a vendor providing a service. It's usually fairly concrete what you're providing, and it's fairly clear if they are satisfied (if they aren't, they stop paying you). As a bonus, it's expected that you set your schedule (as a 1099 requirement), so you get a lot of flexibility. Of course, if you're contracting for a company that thinks in terms of "resources" that will trickle down into contractors, too. Sometimes team perks like the quarterly see-a-random-movie are "members-only", which doesn't feel great. But then, nobody complains much if you take three weeks off to go hiking.
- toyg 6y ago
  Been there, done that; the problem is the hassle over unrelated overhead (like chasing payments, in one case for almost a year...) and the uncertainty (it’s feast or famine, most of the time).
- SkyPuncher 6y ago
  Contracting/consulting comes with an entirely different set of problem/challenge, though. I feel like this suggestion is akin to remodeling your house simply because the walls are the wrong paint color.
- Nursie 6y ago
  A good part of the reason I'm independent these days is hatred of the annual review. Of course the pay bump helps :)
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  That no longer will be possible in the UK next year as government changed IR35 rules. Clients to be safe will declare you a deemed employee and as a bonus they'll be able to use tools used on employees plus you get no employment rights.
  - tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    That legislation seems short sighted to me, the less flexible the workforce is the worse off we will be. If they were worried about losing tax revenue they should have started treating dividends as normal income.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  This has not been my experience consulting at all. Unless you're working for a small company directly for the owner you will be dealing with someone who has to convince their boss the project was a success or you were responsible for the failure. And you need to care about a lot of metrics and outcomes to make that you are successful as measured by those metrics, or that it doesn't look like you are responsible for the failure. Just doing a great job doesn't cut it. No client ever really wants on day 90 what they signed up for on day 1. For most clients the person who is signing your checks, the person you work with on a day to day basis, and the people who will be using your apps will be different people. They will all have different ideas of what success and failure are, and they all have other people they are responsible to. And all of these tensions need to be managed successfully, and this involves a ton of BS that is completely unrelated to what a naïve engineer would describe as "delivering value". In a normal job your boss is usually your friend, and looks bad if he throws you under the bus. This is not the same for a lot of consulting engagements where people are highly motived to blame their failures on you.
  - Baeocystin 6y ago
    >Unless you're working for a small company directly for the owner These are the only clients I take as a consultant. As an individual, you aren't going to be able to have that many clients at once; there's no reason, then, not to target the ones that make the job more satisfying. You do often wind up working for small (<50 employees) businesses, but at the same time, this also means your work has a greater chance of having a bigger positive impact across the board. Everyone has their different wants, of course, and there are plenty of headaches that come from being a 1099 worker. But there's no reason it has to be a slog, either.
  - 01100011 6y ago
    It really depends. Like many "software" discussions on HN, it depends what type of software you work on. It depends on the companies you work for. It depends on your reputation and the types of jobs you take. You can have folks swearing that their 20 year consulting/contracting career was a breeze arguing with people who complain about bad customers and unpaid invoices. I've had customers that want every minute accounted for. I've been pressed to cut my rate for time spent in meetings. I've also had years where the invoices were paid and no questions were asked. I often developed good, personal relationships with clients, even the ones asking me to cut my rate for meetings. It depends what the company is looking for. It depends on if you oversold yourself, or failed to manage expectations. It's easy to promise too much to get the job. It helps to work with people who are current/former engineers because they understand realities better. That's not always the case, but generally.
blackearl 6y ago
If you work at a company where bullshit flows uphill it's a winning strategy. If your manager's manager likes those kind of stats it certainly makes their job easier. I don't know how long I'd want to work at a place like that though.
- JamesBarney 6y ago
  I've worked on 5 fortune 500 companies and every single one worked like that. This was far less true at smaller companies where the owners/founders were directly involved. Are there large companies where it doesn't work like that?
  - dec0dedab0de 6y ago
    i've worked for 3 fortune 500 companies and have managed to get them all to either treat me like an individual, or to even change policies at a higher level. The trick for me is to always be open and honest while not coming across as hostile, but also showing no fear of reprisal. This means being open about your own weaknesses in front of your managers and team mates, which only works if your strengths outweigh those weaknesses. I don't think everyone can pull it off, but so far I've managed to get myself in a position where everyone I interact with is always willing to hear me out. I don't always get what I want, but when people listen to your ideas then sometimes they start to think its their own idea, and then it begins to spread.
tubularhells 6y ago
I know autistic developers who are not unwilling but unable to use the second startegy. They cannot comprehend the insanity the manager wants from them. Regardless, they get shit done so it's the manager who has to change strategies. I say if you openly do not care and stick to #1, the world will align.
- jozzy-james 6y ago
  maybe it's the managers that are autistic
kubanczyk 6y ago
Ah, if it's about faster promotions, I can be only happy that my pay was rising acceptably throughout years of using strategy #1. I briefly tried strategy #2 but it was a near-instant burnout for me, hence decidedly not a "pleasant work experience".
alexpetralia 6y ago
That is because the system (organization) prefers its nodes to be legible rather than illegible. It might hear that some nodes are "more productive", but that is illegible and unauditable from the system's point of view. In light of this, I see no reason why employees shouldn't conform to the metrics; yes, some "true productivity" is sacrificed, but that is the price of legibility. That has always been the price of legibility, whether you're a state or a company or a community. For large organizations, that is a price they often choose to pay.
- pishpash 6y ago
  Start by hiring good people that you don't need "legibility" from. Or fire managers who have no real use other than to "read".
- qntty 6y ago
  What does legible mean?
  - chordalkeyboard 6y ago
    its taken from James Scott's Seeing Like A State and in this context legibility is the characteristic of a supervisor to be able to ascertain all the characteristics they consider relevant at a glance.
wilt 6y ago
I have a low tolerance for bs like this. I usually articulate why its bs to my manager to give them a chance to fix it and if they are unwilling to i get a new job. No point in staying to deal with that kind of bs, life is short.
etxm 6y ago
Are there many employers that do this? It’s crazy.

prewett 6y ago

There's a third strategy for the no-BS, independent types: opt out. Contracting/consulting avoids a lot of that. You're not a worker bee that the company "owns/rents", you are a vendor providing a service. It's usually fairly concrete what you're providing, and it's fairly clear if they are satisfied (if they aren't, they stop paying you). As a bonus, it's expected that you set your schedule (as a 1099 requirement), so you get a lot of flexibility. Of course, if you're contracting for a company that thinks in terms of "resources" that will trickle down into contractors, too. Sometimes team perks like the quarterly see-a-random-movie are "members-only", which doesn't feel great. But then, nobody complains much if you take three weeks off to go hiking.

toyg 6y ago
Been there, done that; the problem is the hassle over unrelated overhead (like chasing payments, in one case for almost a year...) and the uncertainty (it’s feast or famine, most of the time).
SkyPuncher 6y ago
Contracting/consulting comes with an entirely different set of problem/challenge, though. I feel like this suggestion is akin to remodeling your house simply because the walls are the wrong paint color.
Nursie 6y ago
A good part of the reason I'm independent these days is hatred of the annual review. Of course the pay bump helps :)
intricatedetail 6y ago
That no longer will be possible in the UK next year as government changed IR35 rules. Clients to be safe will declare you a deemed employee and as a bonus they'll be able to use tools used on employees plus you get no employment rights.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  That legislation seems short sighted to me, the less flexible the workforce is the worse off we will be. If they were worried about losing tax revenue they should have started treating dividends as normal income.
JamesBarney 6y ago
This has not been my experience consulting at all. Unless you're working for a small company directly for the owner you will be dealing with someone who has to convince their boss the project was a success or you were responsible for the failure. And you need to care about a lot of metrics and outcomes to make that you are successful as measured by those metrics, or that it doesn't look like you are responsible for the failure. Just doing a great job doesn't cut it. No client ever really wants on day 90 what they signed up for on day 1. For most clients the person who is signing your checks, the person you work with on a day to day basis, and the people who will be using your apps will be different people. They will all have different ideas of what success and failure are, and they all have other people they are responsible to. And all of these tensions need to be managed successfully, and this involves a ton of BS that is completely unrelated to what a naïve engineer would describe as "delivering value". In a normal job your boss is usually your friend, and looks bad if he throws you under the bus. This is not the same for a lot of consulting engagements where people are highly motived to blame their failures on you.
- Baeocystin 6y ago
  >Unless you're working for a small company directly for the owner These are the only clients I take as a consultant. As an individual, you aren't going to be able to have that many clients at once; there's no reason, then, not to target the ones that make the job more satisfying. You do often wind up working for small (<50 employees) businesses, but at the same time, this also means your work has a greater chance of having a bigger positive impact across the board. Everyone has their different wants, of course, and there are plenty of headaches that come from being a 1099 worker. But there's no reason it has to be a slog, either.
- 01100011 6y ago
  It really depends. Like many "software" discussions on HN, it depends what type of software you work on. It depends on the companies you work for. It depends on your reputation and the types of jobs you take. You can have folks swearing that their 20 year consulting/contracting career was a breeze arguing with people who complain about bad customers and unpaid invoices. I've had customers that want every minute accounted for. I've been pressed to cut my rate for time spent in meetings. I've also had years where the invoices were paid and no questions were asked. I often developed good, personal relationships with clients, even the ones asking me to cut my rate for meetings. It depends what the company is looking for. It depends on if you oversold yourself, or failed to manage expectations. It's easy to promise too much to get the job. It helps to work with people who are current/former engineers because they understand realities better. That's not always the case, but generally.

blackearl 6y ago

If you work at a company where bullshit flows uphill it's a winning strategy. If your manager's manager likes those kind of stats it certainly makes their job easier. I don't know how long I'd want to work at a place like that though.

JamesBarney 6y ago
I've worked on 5 fortune 500 companies and every single one worked like that. This was far less true at smaller companies where the owners/founders were directly involved. Are there large companies where it doesn't work like that?
- dec0dedab0de 6y ago
  i've worked for 3 fortune 500 companies and have managed to get them all to either treat me like an individual, or to even change policies at a higher level. The trick for me is to always be open and honest while not coming across as hostile, but also showing no fear of reprisal. This means being open about your own weaknesses in front of your managers and team mates, which only works if your strengths outweigh those weaknesses. I don't think everyone can pull it off, but so far I've managed to get myself in a position where everyone I interact with is always willing to hear me out. I don't always get what I want, but when people listen to your ideas then sometimes they start to think its their own idea, and then it begins to spread.

tubularhells 6y ago

I know autistic developers who are not unwilling but unable to use the second startegy. They cannot comprehend the insanity the manager wants from them. Regardless, they get shit done so it's the manager who has to change strategies. I say if you openly do not care and stick to #1, the world will align.

jozzy-james 6y ago
maybe it's the managers that are autistic

kubanczyk 6y ago

Ah, if it's about faster promotions, I can be only happy that my pay was rising acceptably throughout years of using strategy #1. I briefly tried strategy #2 but it was a near-instant burnout for me, hence decidedly not a "pleasant work experience".

alexpetralia 6y ago

That is because the system (organization) prefers its nodes to be legible rather than illegible. It might hear that some nodes are "more productive", but that is illegible and unauditable from the system's point of view. In light of this, I see no reason why employees shouldn't conform to the metrics; yes, some "true productivity" is sacrificed, but that is the price of legibility. That has always been the price of legibility, whether you're a state or a company or a community. For large organizations, that is a price they often choose to pay.

pishpash 6y ago
Start by hiring good people that you don't need "legibility" from. Or fire managers who have no real use other than to "read".
qntty 6y ago
What does legible mean?
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  its taken from James Scott's Seeing Like A State and in this context legibility is the characteristic of a supervisor to be able to ascertain all the characteristics they consider relevant at a glance.

wilt 6y ago

I have a low tolerance for bs like this. I usually articulate why its bs to my manager to give them a chance to fix it and if they are unwilling to i get a new job. No point in staying to deal with that kind of bs, life is short.

etxm 6y ago

Are there many employers that do this? It’s crazy.