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This is speaking of entropy and states of gasses. Isn't there some generalization of entropy, such that even when sentient life-forms tried their damnedest, or

This is speaking of entropy and states of gasses. Isn't there some generalization of entropy, such that even when sentient life-forms tried their damnedest, or even in black-holes, entropy must always trend up? Or was that a mischaracterization?

SuoDuanDao 6y ago
Ask three thermodynamics engineers, get five answers. The generalization you're referring to is pretty accurate, but according to some interpretations it's just assumed to exist a priori and then we look for evidence of it. But while it's unclear whether entropy is the result of some universal law or a hack we use to make the math work out, it definitely does make the math work out in closed systems of gasses.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered states that's why any random configuration of gas particles in a system is more likely to be disordered. Also when you try to purturb the state of random particles from state1 to state2, by probability state2 will be disordered because there are far more possible disordered states than ordered states... even when the initial state is ordered. Hence entropy increases. The philosophical thing people should be examining is the nature of probability and reality which we already know is intrinsically tied with the nature of fundamental particles. Probability is an axiom, entropy is a theorem derived from the axiom of probability.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered states that's why any random configuration of gas particles in a system is more likely to be disordered. Also when you try to purturb the state of random particles from state1 to state2, by probability state2 will be disordered because there are far more possible disordered states than ordered states... even when the initial state is ordered. Hence entropy increases. The philosophical thing people should be examining is the nature of probability and reality which we already know is intrinsically tied with the nature of fundamental particles. Probability is an axiom, entropy is a theorem derived from the axiom of probability, the fact that it is called a "law" seems like it's fundamental but it's not, entropy can be derived assuming probability is true.
  - SuoDuanDao 6y ago
    this seems like a good angle with which to approach the question. To my way of conceptualising, Entropy is something like the inverse of data. What makes one state less ordered than another? The more ordered state requires less data to be fully described. In that sense there is an underlying reality to entropy, but it's impossible to be sure, an ordered state could seem disordered if we lack the data that would describe it. I think we understand entropy to the same degree we understand data, and as data science develops I hope we'll develop a better understanding of entropy as a consequence. Heat makes for a good proxy though.
    - Geminidog 6y ago
      Your intuition gets you to the right place but I think it is a bit flawed. Entropy must be described relative to a system and an arbitrary definition of macrostates and microstates. It actually has nothing to do with disorder or order, I used the term previously because it helps with intuition but it is actually categorically wrong. For example for a system of 5 loaded dice that roll six 99% of the time. With a microstate defined as the value of each dice after a roll and a macrostate defined as the number of 6s. With this system entropy goes up as you roll more sixes. Order also goes up with entropy. Entropy is an arbitrary concept that is defined relative to your choice of a "system", "macrostates" and "microstates." You can choose systems that have higher probabilities of being ordered like say magnetic cubes in a box versus regular cubes. The magnetic cubes are more likely to be stacked perfectly and that is defined as a higher entropic state even when there is "less" information needed to "describe" it. I never read about information theory but I'm assuming that the choice of "system" in information theory is usually pretty simple as in you can have numbers like the dice, but you usually don't work with "loaded" dice. So under the case where the microstate of each entity has equal probability of occuring. In this case there is a direct relationship between whether data describing something can be compressed and the entropy of of that something. The higher the entropy the less it can be compressed. Information places idealistic restrictions on microstates... However this is not the case in nature. If the microstate of our universe of atoms is defined as the cartesian coordinates of each atom. Then atoms have a tendency to coalesce into spheres (planets, starts, black holes) due to gravity and as a result each microstate does not have equal probability of occuring. Planets are in fact a higher entropic state then the cloud of dust that the planet initially started out as. I can now describe all those atoms with in compressed form (a macrostate): "Planet." Thereby leading to an opposite relationship between compressibility and entropy. In this case the higher the entropy of a system the less information is needed to describe it.
abdullahkhalids 6y ago
The laws of physics, as far as we understand and have checked, are exactly the same for sentient life, as they are for "dead" matter. In any closed system (which might include sentient life) it is impossible for entropy to decrease, no matter how much the sentient life tries to stop this from happening.
- Geminidog 6y ago
  The article above just proved it's possible using math. From an intuitive standpoint it's also easy to see why entropy can decrease. However the problem is, most people don't have a good intuition of what entropy is.... Entropy is a probabilistic phenomena. Meaning that entropy can go lower, it's just that there is a low probability of it happening. So for example random particles in a closed system do have the potential of self organizing into a cube but it's just a very very low probability. Even the sentence above distracts from what entropy truly is because our solar system is an example of particles self organizing into spheres rather than cubes. Here's another example: Flat cylindrical Magnets will self organize into stacks. When the magnets are scattered entropy is lower, when the magnets self organize into a stack entropy has reached it's highest equilibrium point. Once you understand why the above occurs in the context of entropy than you truly understand the concept. Until then most people don't understand it at all and explain away the self organization with some temperature increase happening somewhere else in the system. The logic above holds the flaw that the system is still self organizing by shifting temperature to other regions in the system. Moving temperature or disorder to specific regions in a system is still self organization.

SuoDuanDao 6y ago

Ask three thermodynamics engineers, get five answers. The generalization you're referring to is pretty accurate, but according to some interpretations it's just assumed to exist a priori and then we look for evidence of it. But while it's unclear whether entropy is the result of some universal law or a hack we use to make the math work out, it definitely does make the math work out in closed systems of gasses.

Geminidog 6y ago
entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered states that's why any random configuration of gas particles in a system is more likely to be disordered. Also when you try to purturb the state of random particles from state1 to state2, by probability state2 will be disordered because there are far more possible disordered states than ordered states... even when the initial state is ordered. Hence entropy increases. The philosophical thing people should be examining is the nature of probability and reality which we already know is intrinsically tied with the nature of fundamental particles. Probability is an axiom, entropy is a theorem derived from the axiom of probability.
Geminidog 6y ago
entropy is phenomenon of probability. It works because probability works. People think entropy is some natural phenomenon in nature that is fundamental. No. Entropy is a consequence of probability. The math works because probability happens to apply to nature. The below is the intuition behind why entropy occurs... once you will realize this it will make sense. Disordered states tend to be more numerous then ordered states that's why any random configuration of gas particles in a system is more likely to be disordered. Also when you try to purturb the state of random particles from state1 to state2, by probability state2 will be disordered because there are far more possible disordered states than ordered states... even when the initial state is ordered. Hence entropy increases. The philosophical thing people should be examining is the nature of probability and reality which we already know is intrinsically tied with the nature of fundamental particles. Probability is an axiom, entropy is a theorem derived from the axiom of probability, the fact that it is called a "law" seems like it's fundamental but it's not, entropy can be derived assuming probability is true.
- SuoDuanDao 6y ago
  this seems like a good angle with which to approach the question. To my way of conceptualising, Entropy is something like the inverse of data. What makes one state less ordered than another? The more ordered state requires less data to be fully described. In that sense there is an underlying reality to entropy, but it's impossible to be sure, an ordered state could seem disordered if we lack the data that would describe it. I think we understand entropy to the same degree we understand data, and as data science develops I hope we'll develop a better understanding of entropy as a consequence. Heat makes for a good proxy though.
  - Geminidog 6y ago
    Your intuition gets you to the right place but I think it is a bit flawed. Entropy must be described relative to a system and an arbitrary definition of macrostates and microstates. It actually has nothing to do with disorder or order, I used the term previously because it helps with intuition but it is actually categorically wrong. For example for a system of 5 loaded dice that roll six 99% of the time. With a microstate defined as the value of each dice after a roll and a macrostate defined as the number of 6s. With this system entropy goes up as you roll more sixes. Order also goes up with entropy. Entropy is an arbitrary concept that is defined relative to your choice of a "system", "macrostates" and "microstates." You can choose systems that have higher probabilities of being ordered like say magnetic cubes in a box versus regular cubes. The magnetic cubes are more likely to be stacked perfectly and that is defined as a higher entropic state even when there is "less" information needed to "describe" it. I never read about information theory but I'm assuming that the choice of "system" in information theory is usually pretty simple as in you can have numbers like the dice, but you usually don't work with "loaded" dice. So under the case where the microstate of each entity has equal probability of occuring. In this case there is a direct relationship between whether data describing something can be compressed and the entropy of of that something. The higher the entropy the less it can be compressed. Information places idealistic restrictions on microstates... However this is not the case in nature. If the microstate of our universe of atoms is defined as the cartesian coordinates of each atom. Then atoms have a tendency to coalesce into spheres (planets, starts, black holes) due to gravity and as a result each microstate does not have equal probability of occuring. Planets are in fact a higher entropic state then the cloud of dust that the planet initially started out as. I can now describe all those atoms with in compressed form (a macrostate): "Planet." Thereby leading to an opposite relationship between compressibility and entropy. In this case the higher the entropy of a system the less information is needed to describe it.

abdullahkhalids 6y ago

The laws of physics, as far as we understand and have checked, are exactly the same for sentient life, as they are for "dead" matter. In any closed system (which might include sentient life) it is impossible for entropy to decrease, no matter how much the sentient life tries to stop this from happening.

Geminidog 6y ago
The article above just proved it's possible using math. From an intuitive standpoint it's also easy to see why entropy can decrease. However the problem is, most people don't have a good intuition of what entropy is.... Entropy is a probabilistic phenomena. Meaning that entropy can go lower, it's just that there is a low probability of it happening. So for example random particles in a closed system do have the potential of self organizing into a cube but it's just a very very low probability. Even the sentence above distracts from what entropy truly is because our solar system is an example of particles self organizing into spheres rather than cubes. Here's another example: Flat cylindrical Magnets will self organize into stacks. When the magnets are scattered entropy is lower, when the magnets self organize into a stack entropy has reached it's highest equilibrium point. Once you understand why the above occurs in the context of entropy than you truly understand the concept. Until then most people don't understand it at all and explain away the self organization with some temperature increase happening somewhere else in the system. The logic above holds the flaw that the system is still self organizing by shifting temperature to other regions in the system. Moving temperature or disorder to specific regions in a system is still self organization.