7 ms·

I live in Oslo and have to say it is pretty great if you are able bodied. If you have trouble walking for any reason, it is really hard because cars have a hard

I live in Oslo and have to say it is pretty great if you are able bodied. If you have trouble walking for any reason, it is really hard because cars have a hard time getting to many places you might need to go. As someone who is periodically in and out of crutches, I have a love-hate relationship with the city. Anyway, this is 2019 data. It should be noted that there was a tragic accident in early 2020 when a 2-year-old was struck and killed. If there were others this year, I have not heard about it, but I don't know for sure. So, it still happens. But, it is rare enough that it is really big news when it does.

PixelOfDeath 6y ago
Should electro bicycles not make such issues easier to handle?
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Possibly, if you're able bodied enough to ride one of those.
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Motorized wheelchair/scooter? The savings from not building car infrastructure should easily pay for personal scooters.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      It's quite cold in Norway. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vigdis_Vandvik/publication/251878198/figure/fig2/AS:601749442285579@1520479655143/Map-of-Norway-indicating-mean-annual-temperature-and-the-sampled-populations-as-well-as.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vigdis_Vandvik/publicat...
      - bluntfang 6y ago
        Just curious, does cold affect people with disabilities more than people without, beyond the obvious non-linear difficulty increase for people with disabilities (ie something thats *2 difficulty increase for a person without disabilities is ^2 difficulty increase)? The only thing I can think of would be battery life of the mobility tools.
        zdragnar 6y ago
        Mobility scooters have to be the slowest form of personal transportation. Since you arent getting exercise, it is that much harder to keep you core temp up. Depending on just how cold it is, that could change an unpleasant trip into a dangerous one. Also, super specific to type of disease or disability, but my arthritis is way worse if I get cold. My hands are practically useless for half an hour after if I don't properly bundle up.
        magicalhippo 6y ago
        If you have asthma or similar lung issues, it can get much more severe if you breathe cold air. I've got a mild case and normally don't even think about it except for the two puffs of medicine a day, but if it's -15C or below I really notice my asthma and have to adjust my breathing technique, like breathing through the mouth with my tongue raised to heat the air before it hits the throat. If you got a severe case you can get special masks[1] which contains a heat magazine/exchange element, however it restricts airflow so if you already struggle with shortness of breath this might not work for you. [1]: https://lunginstitute.com/blog/ct-masks-for-copd/ https://lunginstitute.com/blog/ct-masks-for-copd/
        joncrane 6y ago
        Keep in mind that walking and bicycling are both forms of exertion, which generates body heat. So yes, cold DOES affect people with disabilities more, because they are not exerting themselves when out and about the way able-bodied people exert themselves.
        bluGill 6y ago
        Disabled often comes as a side effect of some other disease. Many of those also have the side effect of poor circulation. Thus cold is worse for them. Now combine this with the points the others have raised.
      - cameronh90 6y ago
        There are heated gloves and blankets that can be powered by the mobility scooter, however.
  - adwww 6y ago
    If you're not able bodied enough to ride a mobility scooter you probably shouldn't be driving a car.
    - tnorthcutt 6y ago
      People who are not able to ride a mobility scooter may be able to ride as passengers in a car.
    - at_a_remove 6y ago
      You are not thinking of the wide range of disabilities. This is fine, you're not handicapped. It doesn't occur to you. It does have to occur to some of us, so your policy quick take is probably not well-conceived. Quick, name the condition(s). I'll phrase it like a riddle: I can dance at your wedding but I cannot walk outside much of the time. ROT13: Nal cubgbfrafvgvivgl qvfbeqre.
adwww 6y ago
I'd argue the car based status quo is not great for the majority of less able bodied people in places like the UK though. Especially when you think a lot of disabled people can not afford to drive or use taxis. Eg. Drop kerbs are frequently missing, cars frequently park on pavements (sidewalks), limited formal crossing points.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  I've noticed that in the Netherlands a lot of the infrastructure for cyclists is also useful for people with mobility scooters. There are a lot of people unable to drive that benefit from decent cycle paths.
  - eythian 6y ago
    Yeah, in NL people with mobility issues can use Canta cars or mobility scooters on the bike lanes, though there has recently been some pushback as people who don't need the mobility aid have sometimes been using Birò cars (similar in size to the Canta) there, so there have been rules introduced, or at least proposed, about who can park them on the footpath, though I'm not totally up on the details of it.
- unpolloloco 6y ago
  The US is much better on this front than the UK. Not great for affording treatment, but there are curb cuts everywhere (in cities at least where there are sidewalks) and very few businesses are not handicap accessible.
  - kayodelycaon 6y ago
    This is largely due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. Accessibility in the US is mandatory.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago
      And there a few law firms that specialize in shaking down cities across the US for large settlements. While ADA access is important, it is not often the most important thing. But the lawsuits are forcing $100+ million settlements that take any prioritization of resources out of the hands of local voters or local legislatures. Why spend $300million on sidewalks 'right now' when other services may be more effective (e.g., on demand shuttles, etc.)
TulliusCicero 6y ago
It seems like a mobility scooter or electric trike could handle that kind of case?
- piva00 6y ago
  They can handle a little bit but they can also be very uncomfortable in Oslo. The sidewalks are not completely level with drains for roof water/ice melting to run through, some sidewalks are not very scooter friendly and some streets are cobblestones and rattle quite hard any scooter or bike. Apart from that you have loads of tram tracks going through the inner city, dangerous for bikes and there are very few bike lanes, most of the time bikes are sharing streets with cars, busses and trams at the same time.
sleepyhead 6y ago
> If you have trouble walking for any reason, it is really hard because cars have a hard time getting to many places you might need to go. But how has the improvements for bicycling and pedestrians affected this? There might be many historic city planning reasons for these issues, not a new bicycle lane or other recent changes. Driving and finding parking in city center of Oslo have always been difficult, these changes has not significantly changed that. It has however encouraged more people to switch from car to bicycle or public transport + walking.
- klunger 6y ago
  You're right -- the new bike paths etc have not affected this. It's more a function of how parking in downtown is virtually non-existent. So if you want to go there, you need to take a taxi or public transport (or have someone drive you, which is a luxury most people don't have). Taxis here are insanely expensive and, while the public transport system is very good, it doesn't go everywhere. So, even if your destination is only, say, 300 meters from the bus stop, that can effectively be insurmountable distance for someone with mobility issues, especially in the winter.
mcguire 6y ago
Thanks for posting! A couple of questions: How does someone moving schlep their furniture around the city center? How many people from outside Oslo come to visit the city every week?
- dan_quixote 6y ago
  I've noticed a variety of small support vehicles in old city centers of Europe. Think of a small parts truck or forklift you might see in a factory. They're be sized to fit on sidewalks and between bollards. Larger trucks/vans unload as close as possible and these support vehicles handle take over for the last few meters.
- MattConfluence 6y ago
  > How does someone moving schlep their furniture around the city center? It's still possible to get just about anywhere with a car, it's just made less convenient. The roads aren't physically blocked, ambulances and such have to be able to get everywhere. Moving day is a pretty rare event for any individual, so you just have to accept that you'll be a bit inconvenienced that day. If you don't own a car yourself you rent a moving van for the day. Street parking downtown is expensive, but it's just for that day. But since it's expensive there's hopefully less competition for the spaces. Then you have to navigate the streets to your new place with your car. It might be slow and you may have to take some detours because some streets are only for pedestrians, bikes and public transportation. But it's just for that day, the other days you are the pedestrian/biker/bus rider that can get around without worrying about cars on that street.
react_burger38 6y ago
I agree that we need to think about accessibility when we eliminate cars. We took our little kids (~6 months and <2) to Paris and the lack of elevators in the vast majority of subway stops made the whole trip absolutely awful. Lugging a stroller up and down flights of stairs was not what I had imagined. London and NYC have a similar lack of accessible subways.

PixelOfDeath 6y ago

Should electro bicycles not make such issues easier to handle?

Cthulhu_ 6y ago
Possibly, if you're able bodied enough to ride one of those.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Motorized wheelchair/scooter? The savings from not building car infrastructure should easily pay for personal scooters.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    It's quite cold in Norway. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vigdis_Vandvik/publication/251878198/figure/fig2/AS:601749442285579@1520479655143/Map-of-Norway-indicating-mean-annual-temperature-and-the-sampled-populations-as-well-as.png https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Vigdis_Vandvik/publicat...
    - bluntfang 6y ago
      Just curious, does cold affect people with disabilities more than people without, beyond the obvious non-linear difficulty increase for people with disabilities (ie something thats *2 difficulty increase for a person without disabilities is ^2 difficulty increase)? The only thing I can think of would be battery life of the mobility tools.
      - zdragnar 6y ago
        Mobility scooters have to be the slowest form of personal transportation. Since you arent getting exercise, it is that much harder to keep you core temp up. Depending on just how cold it is, that could change an unpleasant trip into a dangerous one. Also, super specific to type of disease or disability, but my arthritis is way worse if I get cold. My hands are practically useless for half an hour after if I don't properly bundle up.
      - magicalhippo 6y ago
        If you have asthma or similar lung issues, it can get much more severe if you breathe cold air. I've got a mild case and normally don't even think about it except for the two puffs of medicine a day, but if it's -15C or below I really notice my asthma and have to adjust my breathing technique, like breathing through the mouth with my tongue raised to heat the air before it hits the throat. If you got a severe case you can get special masks[1] which contains a heat magazine/exchange element, however it restricts airflow so if you already struggle with shortness of breath this might not work for you. [1]: https://lunginstitute.com/blog/ct-masks-for-copd/ https://lunginstitute.com/blog/ct-masks-for-copd/
      - joncrane 6y ago
        Keep in mind that walking and bicycling are both forms of exertion, which generates body heat. So yes, cold DOES affect people with disabilities more, because they are not exerting themselves when out and about the way able-bodied people exert themselves.
      - bluGill 6y ago
        Disabled often comes as a side effect of some other disease. Many of those also have the side effect of poor circulation. Thus cold is worse for them. Now combine this with the points the others have raised.
    - cameronh90 6y ago
      There are heated gloves and blankets that can be powered by the mobility scooter, however.
- adwww 6y ago
  If you're not able bodied enough to ride a mobility scooter you probably shouldn't be driving a car.
  - tnorthcutt 6y ago
    People who are not able to ride a mobility scooter may be able to ride as passengers in a car.
  - at_a_remove 6y ago
    You are not thinking of the wide range of disabilities. This is fine, you're not handicapped. It doesn't occur to you. It does have to occur to some of us, so your policy quick take is probably not well-conceived. Quick, name the condition(s). I'll phrase it like a riddle: I can dance at your wedding but I cannot walk outside much of the time. ROT13: Nal cubgbfrafvgvivgl qvfbeqre.

adwww 6y ago

I'd argue the car based status quo is not great for the majority of less able bodied people in places like the UK though. Especially when you think a lot of disabled people can not afford to drive or use taxis. Eg. Drop kerbs are frequently missing, cars frequently park on pavements (sidewalks), limited formal crossing points.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
I've noticed that in the Netherlands a lot of the infrastructure for cyclists is also useful for people with mobility scooters. There are a lot of people unable to drive that benefit from decent cycle paths.
- eythian 6y ago
  Yeah, in NL people with mobility issues can use Canta cars or mobility scooters on the bike lanes, though there has recently been some pushback as people who don't need the mobility aid have sometimes been using Birò cars (similar in size to the Canta) there, so there have been rules introduced, or at least proposed, about who can park them on the footpath, though I'm not totally up on the details of it.
unpolloloco 6y ago
The US is much better on this front than the UK. Not great for affording treatment, but there are curb cuts everywhere (in cities at least where there are sidewalks) and very few businesses are not handicap accessible.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  This is largely due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. Accessibility in the US is mandatory.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    And there a few law firms that specialize in shaking down cities across the US for large settlements. While ADA access is important, it is not often the most important thing. But the lawsuits are forcing $100+ million settlements that take any prioritization of resources out of the hands of local voters or local legislatures. Why spend $300million on sidewalks 'right now' when other services may be more effective (e.g., on demand shuttles, etc.)

TulliusCicero 6y ago

It seems like a mobility scooter or electric trike could handle that kind of case?

piva00 6y ago
They can handle a little bit but they can also be very uncomfortable in Oslo. The sidewalks are not completely level with drains for roof water/ice melting to run through, some sidewalks are not very scooter friendly and some streets are cobblestones and rattle quite hard any scooter or bike. Apart from that you have loads of tram tracks going through the inner city, dangerous for bikes and there are very few bike lanes, most of the time bikes are sharing streets with cars, busses and trams at the same time.

sleepyhead 6y ago

> If you have trouble walking for any reason, it is really hard because cars have a hard time getting to many places you might need to go. But how has the improvements for bicycling and pedestrians affected this? There might be many historic city planning reasons for these issues, not a new bicycle lane or other recent changes. Driving and finding parking in city center of Oslo have always been difficult, these changes has not significantly changed that. It has however encouraged more people to switch from car to bicycle or public transport + walking.

klunger 6y ago
You're right -- the new bike paths etc have not affected this. It's more a function of how parking in downtown is virtually non-existent. So if you want to go there, you need to take a taxi or public transport (or have someone drive you, which is a luxury most people don't have). Taxis here are insanely expensive and, while the public transport system is very good, it doesn't go everywhere. So, even if your destination is only, say, 300 meters from the bus stop, that can effectively be insurmountable distance for someone with mobility issues, especially in the winter.

mcguire 6y ago

Thanks for posting! A couple of questions: How does someone moving schlep their furniture around the city center? How many people from outside Oslo come to visit the city every week?

dan_quixote 6y ago
I've noticed a variety of small support vehicles in old city centers of Europe. Think of a small parts truck or forklift you might see in a factory. They're be sized to fit on sidewalks and between bollards. Larger trucks/vans unload as close as possible and these support vehicles handle take over for the last few meters.
MattConfluence 6y ago
> How does someone moving schlep their furniture around the city center? It's still possible to get just about anywhere with a car, it's just made less convenient. The roads aren't physically blocked, ambulances and such have to be able to get everywhere. Moving day is a pretty rare event for any individual, so you just have to accept that you'll be a bit inconvenienced that day. If you don't own a car yourself you rent a moving van for the day. Street parking downtown is expensive, but it's just for that day. But since it's expensive there's hopefully less competition for the spaces. Then you have to navigate the streets to your new place with your car. It might be slow and you may have to take some detours because some streets are only for pedestrians, bikes and public transportation. But it's just for that day, the other days you are the pedestrian/biker/bus rider that can get around without worrying about cars on that street.

react_burger38 6y ago

I agree that we need to think about accessibility when we eliminate cars. We took our little kids (~6 months and <2) to Paris and the lack of elevators in the vast majority of subway stops made the whole trip absolutely awful. Lugging a stroller up and down flights of stairs was not what I had imagined. London and NYC have a similar lack of accessible subways.