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this paragraph shows the bias "The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than advertised when tested by Emissions Analytics on a

this paragraph shows the bias "The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than advertised when tested by Emissions Analytics on a fully charged battery in optimal conditions. On an empty battery, they emitted three to eight times more than official values. When driven in battery-charging mode, which could become more common as motorists charge up ahead of using electric mode in low-emissions zones, the PHEVs emitted three to 12 times more." 1) when empty, they emit more CO2 than their average assumed values. this is obvious. its just using gas, no battery. 2) when using the gas engine to charge the battery (i.e. instead of just generate enough electricity to move the car as desired), of course it is the worst performing. you're running the generator at full blast. I had a Chevy Volt in palo alto where I was able to charge every night. I used it for commuting around (including a regular weekend trip to SF and other trips as far north as berkeley). As I was able to charge regularly (either 220v or 110v), I filled up the gas tank once a year (and that's because the car forces you to not have gas over a year old on average). Now, I don't have the ability to calculate how much CO2 was produced because of my charging times, but in terms of actual CO2 produced by the car, I'd put my experience over any other traditional ICE car. Similarly, drove the car cross country. While I wasn't able to charge regularly, the electric motor handled the ups and downs of the terrain much better than all the other ICE cars I passed with ease.

ppf 6y ago
You missed this line: >"The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than advertised when tested by Emissions Analytics on a fully charged battery in optimal conditions. Hybrids are designed by manufacturers who want to pass emissions legislation, and bought by customers who just want a car (in my experience, here in the UK that means "I want an oversized car so I feel safe as I blast around small roads at excessive speed).
- PietdeVries 6y ago
  Can't speak for the UK, but in the Netherlands the tax deduction laws have changed (already 4 years ago) to no longer give lease-car drivers a tax advantage when driving a hybrid. Only full electric cars were eligible for a lower tax rate - the hybrids were taxed like regular ICU cars. I have personally driven a C350e - a hybrid with an amazingly short range - and I really like the concept. If you compare the fuel consumption with similar cars (same, weight, size) it is much more fuel efficient. And indeed, that greatly depends on how disciplined the driver is. I charge wherever I can, manually set the car to 'full electric' until I run out of charge and don't "blaze around small roads at excessive speed". The 1600 kg Mercedes can run a comfortable 1 liter per 30 kms and more. So sure, the fancy stories told by the salesmen, you are never going to see happen. But better fuel consumption without the charging stress (anyone seen the Tesla's waiting in line for supercharger-stations during the previous winter when we still were allowed to ski?) is easily done.
- IronRanger 6y ago
  And if that weight and cost budget was just used for batteries, instead of an engine and drivetrain, you'd get a much better electric vehicle.
  - ppf 6y ago
    If you took the BOM cost of the ICE components in a hybrid car, and spent it on the electric drivetrain, you would end up with a very poor performing EV (at least, the range would be abysmal).
    - zaroth 6y ago
      This is less and less true every year. Similar to the x86 vs ARM performance chart, or any disruptive technology really. I think the crossover will happen in less than 10 years. After that point an ICE vehicle will be worse in every performance metric, and cost more for less.
      - WorldMaker 6y ago
        Compared to the supply chain for an EV motor, the supply chain for an ICE is incredibly complex and ripe for disruption. When that disruption occurs things are going to get real interesting, real fast. (As one indicator to watch, Bosch is a German conglomerate that alone makes a surprisingly large fraction of the ICE supply chain and key parts in almost every major ICE from at the very least US and German manufacturers. Bosch has rumored a pivot for several years now that the time for them to get out of ICE vehicle parts is coming up as all the German manufacturers plan to go EV only. If Bosch makes that pivot they would hugely disrupt ICE costs. That's just one conglomerate of a dozen or less capable of that kind of disruption right now.)
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
I have a Chevy Volt as well. But we also have an Outlander PHEV. I wouldn't call the Volt a PHEV or include it in the same category as the Outlander at all. The Volt is an electric car that happens to have an ICE as backup. the Outlander PHEV is a soft hybrid with a bigger battery. It's pretty much impossible to drive it without using the gas engine, even when you hit the "EV" button. And from my impression that's the case with pretty much every PHEV other than the Volt. But we needed a people mover that fits kids, dogs, skis, etc. for longer trips. So that was the best compromise. It's a shame they killed the Volt and screwed up in marketing it. Such an amazing piece of engineering. I don't like GM's products generally, but I would have bought an Equinox type vehicle with a Voltec drivetrain and paid good money for it.
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  GM indicates that they think the EV transition is happening sooner than people and has no plans for another PHEV, just a large slate of EVs between 2023-2030. The Volt is mentioned as a transition option no longer necessary, according to current GM plans. Relatedly, all of the German automakers currently expect to be entirely EV by 2030. (Asian automakers are interestingly split by how much they rely on US car sales versus Chinese car sales. Those selling to China are on a very fast ramp to all EV production and those with much more reliance on US sales are still hedging their bets.) There's an interesting feeling in the air that it could be a surprisingly fast switch in the next few years. I've loved my Volt and it was a great purchase in 2011, but in 2020 it does feel like a transition tech that I wouldn't buy again (especially as commute changes and electric reliability have moved me more and more to the "gas up once a year only because the Volt makes me" group), I'd personally go for a proper EV next time. It will be interesting to watch the next few years because I think things are about to go "weird" quickly (in rapid shifts in gas prices and availability).
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    Until there's charging stations deep in the woods a few hundred km from any town, I won't be able to own a pure EV as my only car, and I'll be holding on to my Volt. I can't see that happening in the next decade. And I'm by far not the only one with those kind of use cases. I think a pure EV meets the needs of most consumers. But I think it's incredibly short sited to drop something like the Volt from the product line, especially in places like here in Canada. Especially since it was superior to anything similar that has come out. I also don't trust GM to actually be pushing the EV transition. It feels to me like stalling.
brightball 6y ago
I went through 2 Chevy Volt leases and loved that car. Averaged 150mpg lifetime. Now I’ve got a Pacifica Minivan plug-in hybrid which has a similar value proposition but the drive train is noticeably different than the Volt’s all electric plus a generator approach.
labcomputer 6y ago
The dirty little secret is that other studies have found that these low-range PHEVs (the three cited above have a useful electric-only range of <10 miles), unlike the Volt, are not often charged by their owners. And, even when they are, the short range means that most miles are driven on dino juice. So, emissions when not charged are extremely relevant. That’s not editorial bias. It’s reality. The Volt (and Clarity PHEV) are almost in a different class. Their large batteries make them more similar to an i3, and a 5-8 year old Volt has more range than a similarly-aged Leaf (unless the owner was extraordinarily lucky and lived in a cold climate)
- compsciphd 6y ago
  a plugin hybrid with less than 10 miles of range shouldn't be considered a plugin hybrid. So, this would seem to be against a certain class of PHEVs, not the concept in general. I would argue that any PHEV that the government wants to recognize as such, should be required to have a minimum range of 40-50 miles.
  - fomine3 6y ago
    I think 30 miles is fine for some user's daily commuting.
    - compsciphd 6y ago
      depends where one lives, but 30 miles range would have been difficult for my palo -> san jose and back commute if I couldn't charge near work and deffinitely not enough if I would do anything else on the way to or from work. that's why I think a 40-50 mile range it lets you commute + do errands. but at the end of the day, we somewhat agree, there needs to be a significant amount of electric range where its not just a gimmic or a glorified prius type hybrid. just because a car can charge from a socket, shouldn't make it regulatory a PHEV.
  - labcomputer 6y ago
    And I would agree with you... but... the vast majority of PHEVs (by number of models and by sales volume) are "mild PHEVs". Volt and Clarity are the exception, not the rule. Even the Prius Prime (the second, better Prius PHEV) has only 22 miles of electric range.

ppf 6y ago

You missed this line: >"The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than advertised when tested by Emissions Analytics on a fully charged battery in optimal conditions. Hybrids are designed by manufacturers who want to pass emissions legislation, and bought by customers who just want a car (in my experience, here in the UK that means "I want an oversized car so I feel safe as I blast around small roads at excessive speed).

PietdeVries 6y ago
Can't speak for the UK, but in the Netherlands the tax deduction laws have changed (already 4 years ago) to no longer give lease-car drivers a tax advantage when driving a hybrid. Only full electric cars were eligible for a lower tax rate - the hybrids were taxed like regular ICU cars. I have personally driven a C350e - a hybrid with an amazingly short range - and I really like the concept. If you compare the fuel consumption with similar cars (same, weight, size) it is much more fuel efficient. And indeed, that greatly depends on how disciplined the driver is. I charge wherever I can, manually set the car to 'full electric' until I run out of charge and don't "blaze around small roads at excessive speed". The 1600 kg Mercedes can run a comfortable 1 liter per 30 kms and more. So sure, the fancy stories told by the salesmen, you are never going to see happen. But better fuel consumption without the charging stress (anyone seen the Tesla's waiting in line for supercharger-stations during the previous winter when we still were allowed to ski?) is easily done.
IronRanger 6y ago
And if that weight and cost budget was just used for batteries, instead of an engine and drivetrain, you'd get a much better electric vehicle.
- ppf 6y ago
  If you took the BOM cost of the ICE components in a hybrid car, and spent it on the electric drivetrain, you would end up with a very poor performing EV (at least, the range would be abysmal).
  - zaroth 6y ago
    This is less and less true every year. Similar to the x86 vs ARM performance chart, or any disruptive technology really. I think the crossover will happen in less than 10 years. After that point an ICE vehicle will be worse in every performance metric, and cost more for less.
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      Compared to the supply chain for an EV motor, the supply chain for an ICE is incredibly complex and ripe for disruption. When that disruption occurs things are going to get real interesting, real fast. (As one indicator to watch, Bosch is a German conglomerate that alone makes a surprisingly large fraction of the ICE supply chain and key parts in almost every major ICE from at the very least US and German manufacturers. Bosch has rumored a pivot for several years now that the time for them to get out of ICE vehicle parts is coming up as all the German manufacturers plan to go EV only. If Bosch makes that pivot they would hugely disrupt ICE costs. That's just one conglomerate of a dozen or less capable of that kind of disruption right now.)

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

I have a Chevy Volt as well. But we also have an Outlander PHEV. I wouldn't call the Volt a PHEV or include it in the same category as the Outlander at all. The Volt is an electric car that happens to have an ICE as backup. the Outlander PHEV is a soft hybrid with a bigger battery. It's pretty much impossible to drive it without using the gas engine, even when you hit the "EV" button. And from my impression that's the case with pretty much every PHEV other than the Volt. But we needed a people mover that fits kids, dogs, skis, etc. for longer trips. So that was the best compromise. It's a shame they killed the Volt and screwed up in marketing it. Such an amazing piece of engineering. I don't like GM's products generally, but I would have bought an Equinox type vehicle with a Voltec drivetrain and paid good money for it.

WorldMaker 6y ago
GM indicates that they think the EV transition is happening sooner than people and has no plans for another PHEV, just a large slate of EVs between 2023-2030. The Volt is mentioned as a transition option no longer necessary, according to current GM plans. Relatedly, all of the German automakers currently expect to be entirely EV by 2030. (Asian automakers are interestingly split by how much they rely on US car sales versus Chinese car sales. Those selling to China are on a very fast ramp to all EV production and those with much more reliance on US sales are still hedging their bets.) There's an interesting feeling in the air that it could be a surprisingly fast switch in the next few years. I've loved my Volt and it was a great purchase in 2011, but in 2020 it does feel like a transition tech that I wouldn't buy again (especially as commute changes and electric reliability have moved me more and more to the "gas up once a year only because the Volt makes me" group), I'd personally go for a proper EV next time. It will be interesting to watch the next few years because I think things are about to go "weird" quickly (in rapid shifts in gas prices and availability).
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Until there's charging stations deep in the woods a few hundred km from any town, I won't be able to own a pure EV as my only car, and I'll be holding on to my Volt. I can't see that happening in the next decade. And I'm by far not the only one with those kind of use cases. I think a pure EV meets the needs of most consumers. But I think it's incredibly short sited to drop something like the Volt from the product line, especially in places like here in Canada. Especially since it was superior to anything similar that has come out. I also don't trust GM to actually be pushing the EV transition. It feels to me like stalling.

brightball 6y ago

I went through 2 Chevy Volt leases and loved that car. Averaged 150mpg lifetime. Now I’ve got a Pacifica Minivan plug-in hybrid which has a similar value proposition but the drive train is noticeably different than the Volt’s all electric plus a generator approach.

labcomputer 6y ago

The dirty little secret is that other studies have found that these low-range PHEVs (the three cited above have a useful electric-only range of <10 miles), unlike the Volt, are not often charged by their owners. And, even when they are, the short range means that most miles are driven on dino juice. So, emissions when not charged are extremely relevant. That’s not editorial bias. It’s reality. The Volt (and Clarity PHEV) are almost in a different class. Their large batteries make them more similar to an i3, and a 5-8 year old Volt has more range than a similarly-aged Leaf (unless the owner was extraordinarily lucky and lived in a cold climate)

compsciphd 6y ago
a plugin hybrid with less than 10 miles of range shouldn't be considered a plugin hybrid. So, this would seem to be against a certain class of PHEVs, not the concept in general. I would argue that any PHEV that the government wants to recognize as such, should be required to have a minimum range of 40-50 miles.
- fomine3 6y ago
  I think 30 miles is fine for some user's daily commuting.
  - compsciphd 6y ago
    depends where one lives, but 30 miles range would have been difficult for my palo -> san jose and back commute if I couldn't charge near work and deffinitely not enough if I would do anything else on the way to or from work. that's why I think a 40-50 mile range it lets you commute + do errands. but at the end of the day, we somewhat agree, there needs to be a significant amount of electric range where its not just a gimmic or a glorified prius type hybrid. just because a car can charge from a socket, shouldn't make it regulatory a PHEV.
- labcomputer 6y ago
  And I would agree with you... but... the vast majority of PHEVs (by number of models and by sales volume) are "mild PHEVs". Volt and Clarity are the exception, not the rule. Even the Prius Prime (the second, better Prius PHEV) has only 22 miles of electric range.