4 ms·

Just stop all subsidies for hybrid cars, as it creates too much of the wrong incentives. If somebody really needs a hybrid car, he can pay for it full price, or

Just stop all subsidies for hybrid cars, as it creates too much of the wrong incentives. If somebody really needs a hybrid car, he can pay for it full price, or buy a subsidized full electric (or wait a few years more until cheaper options are available). I'm planning to buy a full electric car next year, and it will be the first time I buy a new car.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago
Or stop all subsidies for hybrids + electrics and just tax fuel like hell? That way, buying a plug-in hybrid to actually plug it would save money, while using it as an ICE car wouldn't.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Macron tried that in France, and got a huge upheal from poor people. It's also not fair to people who bought their car already, because they had to calculate with the price of gas to see if it's worth it for them.
  - karamanolev 6y ago
    Would doing regular, small ramps on gas taxes over multiple years solve that problem?
    - adrianN 6y ago
      The debate is so emotionalized that I don't think that the problem is the actual increase in price, but the very fact that you want to make driving more expensive.
      - ianai 6y ago
        Don’t neglect the propaganda problem catalyzing the outrage.
      - rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
        It makes little sens to make driving more expensive if it's still a necessity to work, if we don't tax the most polluting activities that are mostly used for leisure (private jets flying just for a weekend trip). The emotions you're referring too come for a feeling of a lack of social justice. If we can manage to apply the same or stricter rule to the most privileged, then a carbon tax might be acceptable. Macron is perceived as the "president des riches" for good reasons.
        adrianN 6y ago
        On the other hand, if we keep subsidizing driving, people keep moving farther away from work, more people drive, and more money needs to be allocated to car-centric infrastructure. It's not a simple problem.
  - ianai 6y ago
    I think other options need to be explored in addition to any new taxes to ameliorate such people. Like massive buy back and replace programs and infrastructure.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
    Because there was no tax on kerosene (for planes mostly used by rich people, for leisure) while Macron wanted to tax the commute of poor people who had no chance but to go to work by car. Macron's policies keep ignoring how much the rich pollute and yet he significantly reduce tax on the top 1% (flat tax on capital is now well below their marginal tax rate).
  - driverdan 6y ago
    > It's also not fair So? The world's not fair, deal with it.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  That would be a good way to get voted out in the UK. People really don't like fuel taxes very much.
Infinitesimus 6y ago
Congrats on your upcoming purchase. Most people cannot afford an electric car and for those who can, not everyone lives in a place with good charging infrastructure so hybrid cars are still quite useful.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  All my friends who bought a new car can afford an electric car as well. Buying a new car in itself is a luxury. The problem is that hybrid cars are often misused by 400% of their allocated quota, which can't be done even with the volkswagen that was caught cheating. I'm OK with hybrids, but definately not OK with the CO2 allocation that they get away with.
  - killtimeatwork 6y ago
    > All my friends who bought a new car can afford an electric car as well. Buying a new car in itself is a luxury. Dunno where you live, but here in Poland there's over a 3x difference between the cheapest (new) petrol car and cheapest new electric car... And the electric's price includes state subsidy. In result, there's plenty of people of modest means (pensioners even) who buy new petrol cars - as they intent to own them for 10-20+ years while doing minimal mileage, making the purchase quite economic - while electric cars are basically still exotic toys.
    - xiphias2 6y ago
      I'm from Hungary, my first car was 7 years old when I bought it, I used it for 10 years, my second car was 6 years old when I bought it and used it for 7 years. I don't see any valid reason for buying a new gas/diesel car, even if it's a cheap one. Now that I have enough money I feel that I can do something for the environment (and my lungs), that's why I'm buying a new electric car, otherwise I would go for a used gas car again.
llampx 6y ago
I do think PHEV's are a good stop-gap, especially given that Li-ion batteries are expensive and there's not enough manufacturing capacity for the demand. Meanwhile there's plenty of experience and R&D that's gone into optimizing gas engines. Most trips are short and easily covered by battery. The gas engine then comes in on the highway. I really think that's the best of both worlds. Especially given that BEV's aren't cheaper or lighter - because the missing gas engine's weight and cost is more than compensated by the additional batteries needed.
- gbrown 6y ago
  Yeah, over the life of my Volt I’ve averaged almost 100mpg since charging covers my whole commute. That includes a number of long road trips on gas, so one car fills both the electric commuting niche and my occasional long distance ICE needs.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    The point of the article is that many cars get the PHEV nameplate and tax credits, but are nothing at all like the Volt. The Volt was an EV with a backup generator. These fake PHEVs have like 10-20 miles of battery range even under ideal driving conditions. The point is the regulatory credits need to be smart enough to see this. It’s just like diesel-gate, it’s not saying all diesel engines are a terrible scam, just certain Diesel engines.

Al-Khwarizmi 6y ago

Or stop all subsidies for hybrids + electrics and just tax fuel like hell? That way, buying a plug-in hybrid to actually plug it would save money, while using it as an ICE car wouldn't.

xiphias2 6y ago
Macron tried that in France, and got a huge upheal from poor people. It's also not fair to people who bought their car already, because they had to calculate with the price of gas to see if it's worth it for them.
- karamanolev 6y ago
  Would doing regular, small ramps on gas taxes over multiple years solve that problem?
  - adrianN 6y ago
    The debate is so emotionalized that I don't think that the problem is the actual increase in price, but the very fact that you want to make driving more expensive.
    - ianai 6y ago
      Don’t neglect the propaganda problem catalyzing the outrage.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
      It makes little sens to make driving more expensive if it's still a necessity to work, if we don't tax the most polluting activities that are mostly used for leisure (private jets flying just for a weekend trip). The emotions you're referring too come for a feeling of a lack of social justice. If we can manage to apply the same or stricter rule to the most privileged, then a carbon tax might be acceptable. Macron is perceived as the "president des riches" for good reasons.
      - adrianN 6y ago
        On the other hand, if we keep subsidizing driving, people keep moving farther away from work, more people drive, and more money needs to be allocated to car-centric infrastructure. It's not a simple problem.
- ianai 6y ago
  I think other options need to be explored in addition to any new taxes to ameliorate such people. Like massive buy back and replace programs and infrastructure.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
  Because there was no tax on kerosene (for planes mostly used by rich people, for leisure) while Macron wanted to tax the commute of poor people who had no chance but to go to work by car. Macron's policies keep ignoring how much the rich pollute and yet he significantly reduce tax on the top 1% (flat tax on capital is now well below their marginal tax rate).
- driverdan 6y ago
  > It's also not fair So? The world's not fair, deal with it.
tonyedgecombe 6y ago
That would be a good way to get voted out in the UK. People really don't like fuel taxes very much.

Infinitesimus 6y ago

Congrats on your upcoming purchase. Most people cannot afford an electric car and for those who can, not everyone lives in a place with good charging infrastructure so hybrid cars are still quite useful.

xiphias2 6y ago
All my friends who bought a new car can afford an electric car as well. Buying a new car in itself is a luxury. The problem is that hybrid cars are often misused by 400% of their allocated quota, which can't be done even with the volkswagen that was caught cheating. I'm OK with hybrids, but definately not OK with the CO2 allocation that they get away with.
- killtimeatwork 6y ago
  > All my friends who bought a new car can afford an electric car as well. Buying a new car in itself is a luxury. Dunno where you live, but here in Poland there's over a 3x difference between the cheapest (new) petrol car and cheapest new electric car... And the electric's price includes state subsidy. In result, there's plenty of people of modest means (pensioners even) who buy new petrol cars - as they intent to own them for 10-20+ years while doing minimal mileage, making the purchase quite economic - while electric cars are basically still exotic toys.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    I'm from Hungary, my first car was 7 years old when I bought it, I used it for 10 years, my second car was 6 years old when I bought it and used it for 7 years. I don't see any valid reason for buying a new gas/diesel car, even if it's a cheap one. Now that I have enough money I feel that I can do something for the environment (and my lungs), that's why I'm buying a new electric car, otherwise I would go for a used gas car again.

llampx 6y ago

I do think PHEV's are a good stop-gap, especially given that Li-ion batteries are expensive and there's not enough manufacturing capacity for the demand. Meanwhile there's plenty of experience and R&D that's gone into optimizing gas engines. Most trips are short and easily covered by battery. The gas engine then comes in on the highway. I really think that's the best of both worlds. Especially given that BEV's aren't cheaper or lighter - because the missing gas engine's weight and cost is more than compensated by the additional batteries needed.

gbrown 6y ago
Yeah, over the life of my Volt I’ve averaged almost 100mpg since charging covers my whole commute. That includes a number of long road trips on gas, so one car fills both the electric commuting niche and my occasional long distance ICE needs.
- zaroth 6y ago
  The point of the article is that many cars get the PHEV nameplate and tax credits, but are nothing at all like the Volt. The Volt was an EV with a backup generator. These fake PHEVs have like 10-20 miles of battery range even under ideal driving conditions. The point is the regulatory credits need to be smart enough to see this. It’s just like diesel-gate, it’s not saying all diesel engines are a terrible scam, just certain Diesel engines.