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I've gone through various "International Training" sessions at my company and one of the things they teach is that if a foreign official says something like, "h

I've gone through various "International Training" sessions at my company and one of the things they teach is that if a foreign official says something like, "hmmm... your papers are invalid, but I can help you out for $100" or similar, you should pay and immediately report (and expense) it on return. I know one coworker who went through this traveling through a small country.

triceratops 6y ago
Your company trained you to pay bribes? That sounds...unusual, and not at all lawful (according to US law, if you are based in the US).
- jbuzbee 6y ago
  Yep, they did and do. And we are a US company with lots of lawyers. My coworker was at a tiny island airport in the middle of the Pacific. If he didn't pay, he wasn't going anywhere.
- s4n1ty 6y ago
  Valid point re: US law, but isn't the alternative training employees to get into potentially dangerous confrontations with officials in corrupt countries?
- onenine 6y ago
  There is an exception under the foreign corrupt practices act (FCPA) that if you do as parent poster described (pay and report as such) then it is legal. Otherwise you are correct, it is highly illegal.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Wow, TIL.
- JackC 6y ago
  Sounds like there's a distinction under the FCPA between actual bribery (illegal) and grease payments (legal), where an official requests a bribe to do their job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act
- temp667 6y ago
  You are spreading misinformation here. In many countries everyone has to pay a facilitation fee (aka bribe) for routine govt actions. These are for things like: obtaining permits, licenses, or other official documents to qualify a person to do business in a foreign country; processing governmental papers, such as visas and work orders; providing police protection, mail pickup and delivery, or scheduling inspections associated with contract performance or inspections related to transit of goods across country; providing phone service, power and water supply, loading and unloading cargo, or protecting perishable products or commodities from deterioration; etc How in the WORLD to folks giving legal advice here not have even this basic understanding of the law?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    I acknowledged that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193691. I never claimed I was giving legal advice. But also, it seems like it's a bit of a grey area: "As a general principle of the Foreign Corrupt Practises Act (FCPA), in the United States, firms and businesses in the US are prohibited from making any payments to foreign officials for routine governmental action. However, any payment that does not effect the decision of the foreign official is not considered a bribe. For example, a businessman in the States may make a payment to a government official to expedite a deal or transaction. Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA. In this regard, it becomes necessary to understand when an amount paid turns from a grease payment to a bribe, which is illegal under law. This is a grey area under the law which is still to be clarified. There are numerous factors that could play a role in demarcation between the two, which include: the amount of payment, the frequency of the payment, the status/level of the foreign official to whom the payment has been made, the outcome of the case regarding which the payment was made, etc."[1] The training at my company is pretty strict about never making any "grease payments", so certainly there's some doubt. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#Exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#...
- willjr10 6y ago
  My company training also states that in situations where you are in possible danger, you should pay the bribe and then document and report it (with the company). For instance, you and a co-worker is in a car accident, you are fine, but your co-worker has a broken leg, you go with your co-worker to the hospital, upon arriving at the hospital you are told the doctor has gone home for the day, but for the right price, someone might be able to get him/her back. There is a "Safe Harbor" exception in these cases, however you must document and report.
brendoelfrendo 6y ago
That is illegal according to US law. At my company, we are explicitly taught the opposite: paying "facilitation fees" is prohibited and illegal and that the employer will fire you and throw you under the bus if they find out you did so. They explicitly mention that this is not allowed even if it is the norm in the country in which you are doing business.
- temp667 6y ago
  "That is illegal according to US law." Can I ask if you are an attorney - because this is absolutely 100% false. You are spreading misinformation here. If your employer fires you for paying a facilitation fee to advance a routine govt action or travel then you should absolutely sue them.
  - leecb 6y ago
    > The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 is a United States federal law that prohibits U.S. citizens and entities from bribing foreign government officials to benefit their business interests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act
    - closeparen 6y ago
      > Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform
- jbuzbee 6y ago
  There's a difference between a bribe to win a contract or similar vs. the case where you feel in danger - e.g. you come across a roadblock in rural Mexico and an armed official wants a "clear up your paperwork" payoff to let you pass. That's the scenario the training covers.
eloisius 6y ago
I had corporate training, annually, that said to do the exact opposite. We were not even allowed to give or accept innocuous gifts like tickets to a game without getting it approved by our legal department.
- temp667 6y ago
  If the gift is to secure business this is likely true especially if the business relates to some govt or official of another country. Very strict there - you can't pay a bribe to get business or as part of business development. However, if you need to pay a "facilitation fee" to exit the country (called routine govt action) that is not about securing business or getting a competitive advantage such as a customs waiver, then paying the fee may be permitted (for a number of reasons). What I think US folks don't realize is some dept's overseas basically pay their staff through these unofficial fees, they set some rates for service, but nothing goes through treasury and no enabling legislation exists. But they also don't get money from their treasury to operate (or its stolen by folks above them) so that's how they keep operating.
  - eloisius 6y ago
    That makes sense, and you’re right. I’ve never worked or lived anywhere that bribes or “facilitation fees” were the norm. The closest I’ve come is a public bus in Vietnam where the driver and fare collector guy made up their own rates contrary to the posted fares.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    People forget that facilitation fees were the norm not long ago: in Britain in 18th century you'd have to pay the judge for judging you and the prison for keeping you. You can imagine that the size of your payment greatly influenced how you were treated. In Russia prior to USSR, facilitation fees is how all officials earned money, that was the official policy. That's only 100 years ago that is was not even considered corruption / bribery. Obviously that disease is still festering in Russia and the country as a whole is paying a grave toll for it. Lastly, do keep in mind that as a local you can probably tell is a payment can be declined withoit repercussions, but as a foreigner you don't really know.
kennywinker 6y ago
I have it on good authority that all apple employees are trained to not pay any kind of bribes. Didn't realize that training would need to be applied in the states tho
- temp667 6y ago
  That's bad training. If they are stuck in a country because they won't pay the $20 exit fee because authorizing legislation was not properly adopted, then apple are idiots. It will take one person dying because of this policy for apple to be sued to hell and back.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    If you are in a life-threatening situation you are encouraged to cooperate; the training isn't stupid.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - outworlder 6y ago
    > That's bad training. If they are stuck in a country because they won't pay the $20 exit fee because authorizing legislation was not properly adopted, then apple are idiots. Oh so they are stuck somewhere during a business trip? In that case, they would contact their company for assistance. Alternatively, it's just a job. The penalties tend to go as far as firing the employee. If it's a life and death situation that's an ok outcome. I mean, if we insist in discussing these convoluted scenarios...
  - Mandatum 6y ago
    That's why organisations use proxy security and travel agents to pay those bribes. It's built into the price. American Express GBT, BCD Travel, CWT, FCM Travel, they all offer it. It's usually expensed as "Consulting" or "Advisory", however never separated in invoiced line-items. Every single large tech organisation has made lip-service commitments publicly to not accept bribes, but also operate in countries where it's the absolute norm. How is that handled? Through an intermediary.
reaperducer 6y ago
one of the things they teach is that if a foreign official says something like, "hmmm... your papers are invalid, but I can help you out for $100" or similar, you should pay and immediately report (and expense) it on return I used to work for a company with a similar policy and training. "Airport tax" was how it was expensed, even if you weren't flying.

triceratops 6y ago

Your company trained you to pay bribes? That sounds...unusual, and not at all lawful (according to US law, if you are based in the US).

jbuzbee 6y ago
Yep, they did and do. And we are a US company with lots of lawyers. My coworker was at a tiny island airport in the middle of the Pacific. If he didn't pay, he wasn't going anywhere.
s4n1ty 6y ago
Valid point re: US law, but isn't the alternative training employees to get into potentially dangerous confrontations with officials in corrupt countries?
onenine 6y ago
There is an exception under the foreign corrupt practices act (FCPA) that if you do as parent poster described (pay and report as such) then it is legal. Otherwise you are correct, it is highly illegal.
- triceratops 6y ago
  Wow, TIL.
JackC 6y ago
Sounds like there's a distinction under the FCPA between actual bribery (illegal) and grease payments (legal), where an official requests a bribe to do their job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act
temp667 6y ago
You are spreading misinformation here. In many countries everyone has to pay a facilitation fee (aka bribe) for routine govt actions. These are for things like: obtaining permits, licenses, or other official documents to qualify a person to do business in a foreign country; processing governmental papers, such as visas and work orders; providing police protection, mail pickup and delivery, or scheduling inspections associated with contract performance or inspections related to transit of goods across country; providing phone service, power and water supply, loading and unloading cargo, or protecting perishable products or commodities from deterioration; etc How in the WORLD to folks giving legal advice here not have even this basic understanding of the law?
- triceratops 6y ago
  I acknowledged that here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25193691. I never claimed I was giving legal advice. But also, it seems like it's a bit of a grey area: "As a general principle of the Foreign Corrupt Practises Act (FCPA), in the United States, firms and businesses in the US are prohibited from making any payments to foreign officials for routine governmental action. However, any payment that does not effect the decision of the foreign official is not considered a bribe. For example, a businessman in the States may make a payment to a government official to expedite a deal or transaction. Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA. In this regard, it becomes necessary to understand when an amount paid turns from a grease payment to a bribe, which is illegal under law. This is a grey area under the law which is still to be clarified. There are numerous factors that could play a role in demarcation between the two, which include: the amount of payment, the frequency of the payment, the status/level of the foreign official to whom the payment has been made, the outcome of the case regarding which the payment was made, etc."[1] The training at my company is pretty strict about never making any "grease payments", so certainly there's some doubt. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#Exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#...
willjr10 6y ago
My company training also states that in situations where you are in possible danger, you should pay the bribe and then document and report it (with the company). For instance, you and a co-worker is in a car accident, you are fine, but your co-worker has a broken leg, you go with your co-worker to the hospital, upon arriving at the hospital you are told the doctor has gone home for the day, but for the right price, someone might be able to get him/her back. There is a "Safe Harbor" exception in these cases, however you must document and report.

brendoelfrendo 6y ago

That is illegal according to US law. At my company, we are explicitly taught the opposite: paying "facilitation fees" is prohibited and illegal and that the employer will fire you and throw you under the bus if they find out you did so. They explicitly mention that this is not allowed even if it is the norm in the country in which you are doing business.

temp667 6y ago
"That is illegal according to US law." Can I ask if you are an attorney - because this is absolutely 100% false. You are spreading misinformation here. If your employer fires you for paying a facilitation fee to advance a routine govt action or travel then you should absolutely sue them.
- leecb 6y ago
  > The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 is a United States federal law that prohibits U.S. citizens and entities from bribing foreign government officials to benefit their business interests. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act
  - closeparen 6y ago
    > Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform
jbuzbee 6y ago
There's a difference between a bribe to win a contract or similar vs. the case where you feel in danger - e.g. you come across a roadblock in rural Mexico and an armed official wants a "clear up your paperwork" payoff to let you pass. That's the scenario the training covers.

eloisius 6y ago

I had corporate training, annually, that said to do the exact opposite. We were not even allowed to give or accept innocuous gifts like tickets to a game without getting it approved by our legal department.

temp667 6y ago
If the gift is to secure business this is likely true especially if the business relates to some govt or official of another country. Very strict there - you can't pay a bribe to get business or as part of business development. However, if you need to pay a "facilitation fee" to exit the country (called routine govt action) that is not about securing business or getting a competitive advantage such as a customs waiver, then paying the fee may be permitted (for a number of reasons). What I think US folks don't realize is some dept's overseas basically pay their staff through these unofficial fees, they set some rates for service, but nothing goes through treasury and no enabling legislation exists. But they also don't get money from their treasury to operate (or its stolen by folks above them) so that's how they keep operating.
- eloisius 6y ago
  That makes sense, and you’re right. I’ve never worked or lived anywhere that bribes or “facilitation fees” were the norm. The closest I’ve come is a public bus in Vietnam where the driver and fare collector guy made up their own rates contrary to the posted fares.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  People forget that facilitation fees were the norm not long ago: in Britain in 18th century you'd have to pay the judge for judging you and the prison for keeping you. You can imagine that the size of your payment greatly influenced how you were treated. In Russia prior to USSR, facilitation fees is how all officials earned money, that was the official policy. That's only 100 years ago that is was not even considered corruption / bribery. Obviously that disease is still festering in Russia and the country as a whole is paying a grave toll for it. Lastly, do keep in mind that as a local you can probably tell is a payment can be declined withoit repercussions, but as a foreigner you don't really know.

kennywinker 6y ago

I have it on good authority that all apple employees are trained to not pay any kind of bribes. Didn't realize that training would need to be applied in the states tho

temp667 6y ago
That's bad training. If they are stuck in a country because they won't pay the $20 exit fee because authorizing legislation was not properly adopted, then apple are idiots. It will take one person dying because of this policy for apple to be sued to hell and back.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  If you are in a life-threatening situation you are encouraged to cooperate; the training isn't stupid.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- outworlder 6y ago
  > That's bad training. If they are stuck in a country because they won't pay the $20 exit fee because authorizing legislation was not properly adopted, then apple are idiots. Oh so they are stuck somewhere during a business trip? In that case, they would contact their company for assistance. Alternatively, it's just a job. The penalties tend to go as far as firing the employee. If it's a life and death situation that's an ok outcome. I mean, if we insist in discussing these convoluted scenarios...
- Mandatum 6y ago
  That's why organisations use proxy security and travel agents to pay those bribes. It's built into the price. American Express GBT, BCD Travel, CWT, FCM Travel, they all offer it. It's usually expensed as "Consulting" or "Advisory", however never separated in invoiced line-items. Every single large tech organisation has made lip-service commitments publicly to not accept bribes, but also operate in countries where it's the absolute norm. How is that handled? Through an intermediary.

reaperducer 6y ago

one of the things they teach is that if a foreign official says something like, "hmmm... your papers are invalid, but I can help you out for $100" or similar, you should pay and immediately report (and expense) it on return I used to work for a company with a similar policy and training. "Airport tax" was how it was expensed, even if you weren't flying.